[USA] ROI – Hospitals and Defense Systems
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by Zoli
Even if it cannot be called a heated debate I like it that people in the US are talking about Hospitals and Defense Systems once again. If you missed it, I would like to point out the article, Fortresses and Hospitals: A Guide for the Perplexed written by Phoenix Quinn as a response to My Reply to johnpauljones’s Queries written by Mohan Kumar .
I like it that you are having a debate about it more than 4 months after I wrote a series of articles on this topic. Just to refresh your memory please read [Q5 Hospitals] US Open Your Eyes .
The 2 forts theory is still very trendy. Let’s not forget the US congress rejected the placement of a Q5 hospital in New York 3 months ago. Even current Secretary of Defense, Joe DaSmoe wrote an article supporting the 2 forts theory. Let me quote for his article [Q5 hospitals] We can see fine thanks! – “We border France, Portugal, Mexico, Russia and Japan. Of these countries, France and Portugal are the only two real threats and our eastern seaboard is nicely protect by the two Q5's and several Q4's placed there.” Let me lol at this remark made 4 months ago.
Fortunately there are still people in the USA who are not blindsighted as those who reject hospitals based on myths and hearsay. Thanks to Max McFarland 2 and his project Operation Mayhem , the USA will have a strong infrastructure.
Returning to the title. ROI or Return on Investment. To calculate ROI, the benefit (return) of an investment is divided by the cost of investment. Since the public sector is not profit based, calculating return on investment must take into account the savings that a project would generate, or the gains it generated to the public sector. Here in game the return can be calculated as the money spent by the opposing country that tries to take a region.
Let’s analyze the investment Hungary made in Manitoba. By placing a Q5 hospital and a Q5 defense system in Manitoba Hungary has spent at a free market price roughly 600 GOLD. The USA and Canada spent 600 GOLD just to attack this region. So currently the ROI is zero for this investment. Hungary will not spend more money on this infrastructure so with the next attack against this region, when Canada or USA will spend 300 GOLD just to open up a new battle, the ROI of this investment will become positive. Even if Hungary will lose this region the investment in hospitals and defense systems would have served its purpose as the USA and Canada would have spent more money to regain the region than what Hungary spent on it to defend it. In a war of attrition the main goal is to spend less money then your opponent.
Returning to the USA, and the question of placing more hospitals and defense systems. You must analyze the ROI of each investment. Taking into account that you are not defending those regions it is hard to measure the return those hospitals and defense systems will provide. It is hard to calculate in GOLD the faster increase of rank a hospital would provide for citizens living in that region. It is hard to express in GOLD the XP gained by people living in that region. If you want to look at gains brought by Q5 hospitals look at your friends - Romania, Poland or look at your opponenst - Hungary, Indonesia, which placed as many hospitals they could.
I am glad that a debate started once again regarding this issue and I am glad that the USA is not run only by hind sighted people.
P.S. Never said you need Q5 hospitals in all states.
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Comments
First Denied...😛
2. 🙂
What exactly do you mean by "hind sighted." Hindsight is, as they say, 20/20. "Backwards looking" is a legitimate negative term but isn't really appropriate in this case. It's more a matter of "learning-from-what-has-happened-sight" and what happened is that our fortress defense kept PEACE from attacking Florida.
So thanks for trying to muddy the waters but a closer, smarter, more detailed look at the issues would do a better job than the desultory trolling you have published here. The old Zoli would've done that.
Zoli the eastern seaboard was fine, until you bitched and complained and made the admins fix the new jersey border while ignoring the other parts of the globe.
mind your own business.
Ha ennyit mondjuk nekik, még a végén megfogadják a tanácsainkat. Nem kell az nekünk 🙂
Viszont figyeljünk a saját babyjeinkre:
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/construction-skilles-babyket-k-z-rdek--989827/1/20" target="_blank">http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/cons[..]/1/20
@Tacitus Arkenseale - Thanks. I have corrected the term in one place
@Moot - Not really. Florida was not attack not because you were so strong, but because PEACE failed to link Russia with Florida. It was clear that only Russia with its MPPs had the force to take that region, and only Russia had a high enough population to hold that region. The question is if you will make the same mistakes you made in the past. Will you keep 8000 Americans in regions without hospital or will you try to change something about that. Who do you fear that would attack you right now?
Maybe, just maybe, you should count the amount of gold/weapons spent by each side in order to attack/defend Manitoba. ROI is still negative if PEACE spent, let's say, 900 gold on WP tanking in order to keep Manitoba.
Ez a ROI tetszik, még sose hallottam róla, de pofás egy dolog 🙂
@andyr - I am sorry to dissapoint you but you EDEN spent more money on WP then PEACE did. Hungary spent a lot of money, but it did that spending in HUF and by purchasing goods from the Hungarian market pumping that money in the economy. That is not a loss as it will return in time through taxes 🙂
Looking just at tanking PEACE did not tank more then what EDEN did 🙂
On the mark as always, Zoli. Those that slander your name are only those who resist the realization of the truth. This article right here is pure truth accompanied by facts. Take it or leave it.
Elizabeth
what did it cost to tank manitoba to keep it?
lol, the McFarland hospital system is a cooperative project, with the US military to build low cost hospitals, so whats your point...From where I am standing it looks like you are saying yay good job US.
@jasonalwaysready - because it is not a secret I will tell you. It costed Hungary 73100 HUF and 1308 GOLD.
@Gaius Julius - you are standing in the right place and you undestand correctly 🙂
\o/
You are so bored in Hungary zoli?
@Price Alexander - Did you look at the USA media? 30 of the last 50 articles are about a Gay Lono.
Gaius@ You should admit that Zoli would be a great Secretary of Interior...
Romania-9 Q5 hospitals,in all their regions!
your hard on for the US baffles me :/
Hey boys stop messing it 😁 It looks a very nice article. I freely came from Spain to help you in the war and learn more about this game... and I am doing. Nice article Zoli, and really nice about Proyect Mayhem and the Fortress Theory, and nice about the less-than-Q5 hospital theory too. When I return to Spain I will really try to put these ideas into play.
Ñ power
Zoli luvs us! lol
Once again, U dont wacth whatíis written, instead U wacth who wrote it. US never learns :/
Go 2 fortress lovers ! 🙂
Ludrew: Ez ismert közgazdasági mutató, legalábbis közgazdászok közt 🙂
bla bla bla= zoli..😁
C'mon Zoli, why can't you just stop? -.-
During the war, ah good ol' times without these articles...
Zoli miért ennyire szivügyed hogy az amcsiknak jólegyen? 🙂
mellesleg jó cikk
Zoli , troli
While I agree that more Q5 hospitals could benefit the US, I think your reasoning (in this article at least) is flawed. While there can certainly be gains from increasing the number of people using a Q5 hospital, it's meaningless to talk of ROI in terms of how much Gold is spent by enemy forces for two reasons.
1. 600 gold isn't the same amount to any two countries. If a country spent the equivalent of a month's revenue to make the enemy spend one half of a month's revenue, it's not equal even if the amount of gold is the same.
2. Opportunity costs. If the gold invested in Infrastructure could be put to better use in another way, which would require the enemy to spend even more money, then it's idiotic to spend it on infrastructure. That is, you can't say that spending 500 gold to make the enemy spend 1,000 gold is a good strategy, if spending that 500 gold some other way makes the enemy spend 1,500 gold. It's just the same as deciding where to put Q5's. You put them where their effect will be greatest. It's using your resources to the greatest potential.
That said, even if you put the military and volunteers to work building them, it's not necessarily free. Your expending labor, the only resource in eRep when you get right down to it. If that labor were spent on guns to fight with, or houses to sell for gold, etc. the gains may be greater than those of a q5. (Then again they may not be it depends I suppose.) (It's worth noting that q5 houses are selling for ~40 gold and q5 hospitals for ~250 gold at the moment though, even though it takes exactly 10 times the inputs to make a q5 hospital)
I still hold that DS's are useless 99% of the time as well, but no one seems to believe me.
Question is wheter you lose more players due to starting at bad regions or wheter placing a few one time investment would worth more to keep these potential players. Especially when the war is halted to defend your positions (since like amonth or so?) because taking and keeping original areas is kind of futile against all the MPPs on both side.
(guess people tend to register to their home land, it was like that during the war even..I remember reading the citizenship applies and many wrote that they registered to the wrong place and they worked to Hungary then bought aticket to fly somewhere else, worked there to some other country and then could return to eUSA homeland so I guess the numbers are considerable)
"I still hold that DS's are useless 99% of the time as well, but no one seems to believe me."
Then Sir, u're an idiot.. 🙂
Zoli FTW
FAIL estupido...
we keep winning and zoli keeps being right and is yet ignored.
coincidence?
Hijoleee
Don 't listen to him,it s hungarian propaganda!
well put
Zoli: "@Price Alexander - Did you look at the USA media? 30 of the last 50 articles are about a Gay Lono."
I lol'd
Isidoro Termagante: "...and nice about the less-than-Q5 hospital theory too."
Thank you. 🙂 That article is here: http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/in-defense-of-q2-3-4-hospitals-976294/1/20" target="_blank">http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/in-d[..]1/20
It's really nice to see this debate take off in the eUS, and to see math and mechanics being argued to move off the conventional logic. If you would like to see this debate continue, Phoenix Quinn's article needs more votes to hit the top-5.
Personally, I welcome Zoli's renewed intervention in American politics but I'm also willing to take bets that this article will be used to attack and discredit both Phoenix Quinn and Mohan Kumar in their congressional campaigns. Zoli can't offer compliments without someone else taking that as proof of treason. 😃
PEACE propaganda!
o7
When did the debate stop? It took place on the eUS forum, just not in newspapers. Glad we could waste some of your time.
Do you even know what an ROI is?
"By placing a Q5 hospital and a Q5 defense system in Manitoba Hungary has spent at a free market price roughly 600 GOLD. The USA and Canada spent 600 GOLD just to attack this region. So currently the ROI is zero for this investment."
I mean seriously? Please do not use terms, especially my beloved economic ones, if you have no clue how to actually calculate it.
ANALYZING REPEATEDLY,STILL CAUTIOUS
I agree with Melvin, Return on Investment doesn't mean what you think it means.
@FallbackPants, Melvin Enterprises - please tell me what you understand by ROI. I think my interpretation is correct
The ROI is calculated by (Gain from investment - Cost of investment) / Cost of investment. Your article assumes that Hungary gained from the investment the gold that the eUSA spent, which is a fair assumption based on your article. As such, your math for the ROI when Hungary spent 600 and the USA spent 600 is indeed fine, since 600 - 600 / 600 is 0 / 600, which is 0.
Its obviously not quite that simple, since tanking costs on both sides have an effect on the total money spent. Also, as pointed out above, a certain amount of gold can have vastly different implications for different countries of varying sizes. For example, if Singapore City was attacked by Russia for some reason, Singapore might be able to spend quite literally all their gold tanking to stay alive. If they spend 800 gold tanking and entirely deplete their treasury to do so, while Russia spends that same 800 which it can make back in a week, its a completely different story.
The only places where its truly worth setting up hospitals and defense systems are in states that have high resources. The rest are better left to be easy retreat fodder so we can regain initiative in the event of an invasion repeat.
However I agree with you that the forteress strategy, while obviously proven to be effective, is devastatingly bad on the economy and its much better to spread out over at least 4 or 5 regions. Being that the US has a whopping 50 (well, technically less since your country is annexing us) its unrealistic at best to say most of them are worth anything, and most would say that the extra states are retreat fodder and extra congress seats. Which are completely unnecessary, mind, but thats another story.
By the way, why do you bother posting here? Either way very good article, and the comments have good criticism. Mostly.
@Illithian - I agree that you this works only for same size countries. The USA has the biggest population so the biggest income so Q5 hospitals have the biggest worth in the USA.
Not all states should get Q5 hospitals, but high resource regions should have Q5 hospitals and regions with the Top5 population in RL should also have Q5 hospitals as people tend to register in their home state.
i disagree US has many regions. if hospital is not available that mieans hundreds citizen should fly after their registration (if they want dont forget some of us like to live there like IRL)
If you count only with 10-20 person per region that means 500-1000 soldier. At higher military level this counts at military spendings and in the economy (weapon, gift companies). Not mentioned a military tour when ctizen number counts again (fees of the attacking at regions)
ROI is relative number which can be hit by time 😃
I find it comical that you are still butthurt over the article I burned you with 4 months ago.
lol.
Joe you di not burn me. In fact time proved me right! With those articles you got your MM medal on my back. You gathered around 400 subscribers then telling that I was wrong, just to find out in time that I was right and you where wrong \o/
I am gloating right now \o/