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Transparency... I love it. Thank you Jacobi!

Voted

il even give 6 !

I would rather use my own six dollars towards buying my own food or guns or investing it towards my own strength gain.

Is it wrong that an active player who has zero shot at a BH should want to use his resources to up his own stats rather than split it with another player with higher stats or more access to supplies?

It's probably a selfish statement and I probably don't fully understand how funding MUs improves Canada's battle influence when the same cash could be used privately by citizens to fight, increase strenght, or invest in self-supply. It is a statement I brought up in Congress recently yet never saw a reply. What benefits in player retention, player activity, # of fights, and/or influence output is achieved by removing cash from everybody and concentrating into the hands of MUs?

Funding for MPPs is a must but supplying food/guns to someone else only makes sense to me if you are distributing the excess in a way that gets more people fighting or increases the damage done with those funds.

If it is the case that private citizens spending their own cash doesn't help the war effort, then we should raise taxes to the maximum point possible. I doubt it would crash the economy, rather it would cause a loss of citizens.

A ) new citizens would move or quit because they cannot afford to save up their cash or fight enough
B ) older/established citizens would move to new countries where the taxes are lower, allowing them to save their cash

I think it would take a lot to 'ruin' eCanada's economy. We're more likely to lose population. But that might be okay if the benefits of concentrating wealth outweigh the drawbacks. Still not sure what those benefits are but I would like to hear about them.

Because 6 dollars over 100 days is 600 dollars. Now, I want my 600 dollars if I am going to continue playing this shite game.

Plugson, I see what you're trying to say, but a 3% increase won't do anything. Jacobi mentions 6 dollars many times, but if the taxes are changed, the average citizen will only find themselves with 3 less CAD every time they work. Since 1g equals 610 CAD, every day you will only lose 0.005g. When the cheapest strength training booster is 0.19g, it would take 40 days of "saving" this extra 3 CAD before it actually amounts to anything remotely useful.

But if we add all those 3 CAD's together (via taxes), it suddenly becomes a reasonable sum which can then be put towards increasing our total damage output.

...Why the hell am I not in congress...

You might be rich MR Jacobi but others not like you ,some (i don't wanna say most) are poor ,if you just acted like all like you then thats too bad ,as many are not and 1$ differs for them and accumulated helps them while taking money from the biz owners won't hurt much ,don't fail your citizens ,you are experienced in this game and for sure you passed all levels from being poor to what you are now just like me ,and guess what it was hurting me those income taxes ,if you don't see that those income tax won't differ much with a citizen ,then guess what it won't help much the treasury specially that some of eCanadians are working in slave pits ,so you just hungry for who chose to not work in these slave pits or you wanna punish them for their choice !!!

CCCP = Canadian Coalition of Communist Politicians

200 kCAD in the treasury : http://www.erepublik.com/en/country/economy/Canada

Thanks for explaining how a small bit adds up to a big amount in the long run, Armour. Still, the part that I am not sure about has not been addressed exactly.

Players cannot use cash for other things in this game except fighting or making companies. Even so, those companies are for war materials. So, if the cash eCanadians have can only be used for the war effort, then how does shifting that cash to the MUs give us more influence. It's not like people are investing money in an area that is not related to fighting.

So let's say my 3 CAD is invested in one food fight. That would equal 800 influence. Now let's take that same 3 CAD and give it to an MU. What does that investment of tax dollars give the average tax payer as a return on investment (ie. in influence dealt in battle)?

I think that is a fair question to ask. What % of influence is gained from shifting money from people to the govt? It's probably not possible to calculate that, so I'll go with my earlier assertion that it is a matter of faith to believe our tax dollars increase eCanada's battle ability. If there are some rough stats, I'd like to hear of them.

I agree with a 1% income tax when Canada is wondering how to get resources from Alaska and Ireland and expansion afterwards.

I agree with a 1% income tax if I had 13 work skill and a newer player has work skill 1.

Neither of these things is the case now.

There are no poor people in Canada, compared to the world that existed before.

I ask that people place this in the context that it deserves. This isn't about wealth, this isn't about fairness, this isn't about trying to protect the poor.

Who here isn't willing to give an extra $5 a day to liberate our country? That's the bottom line. If that's too much for someone, when they get all the food they need for a login a day, when everyone makes the same amount, when most profits are generated through other means, then I simply don't want them anyways.

If $5 extra a day, from 1% to 6% is just too much for some selfish prick, then GTFO.

As for you Plugson, I will make you an article that explains the entire philosophy behind this sort of wealth distribution. Please give me 3 hours. 🙂

jacobi: please send me six dollars. My answer makes me cringe because of the uncharacteristic language. Please refer to my cousin viny for greater elaboration and eye candy.

It's a bullshit question. Based on bullshit premises.

1. you aren't a limpid peon facing down powerful technocrats. Speaking truth to power? come off it. few are more powerful than you in the game.

2. congressmen are playing chicken little... predicting the sky will fall? Bull. Some think income tax increases are not as favorable as other revenue sources. Either solution is better than not lifting the debt ceiling... err.. better than inactivity.

3. All players can afford the six dollars/day. The issue is how is it to be raised. And how is it to be used. Income tax is not the only game in town.

4. S&P is considering downgrading our credit rating so ... ehhh ... wrong debate again.

5. You need only 17 congressmen to get your measure passed. Forge ahead with the convincing and bring this thing to a vote.

6. Posting your position for "congressional posterity" sounds like admitting defeat. Reminds me of your post about the election of rolo: "i have no leadership to offer". try harder. As Wooden would say: strive to be your best today, and better every day thereafter.

7. I don't really want the six dollars. I still believe in you.

I think Plugsons point is that there needs to be some evidence that a dollar spent by an MU deals more influence then one spent by a private citizen. It just happens to be coated in the standard anti-tax rhetoric we all know and love.

I honestly, have no strong opinion either way. I don't pay taxes, save when I occasionally buy a batch of weapons and then I don't paying the money.

Though I think it would be a useful study to see just how much more efficient, if any, an MU is over individuals citizens. I suppose you would have to look at those being supplied in the MUs, I believe its been a month since I've asked for supplies, though I do recieve a bundle of guns once in a while from MOO for working in the slave pits.

plug: partial answer follows.

taxing income takes money from a large pool of players and distributes to a smaller pool. It concentrates. It also provides other possibilities, related to concentration of effort on significant battles, effected through the actual mode of supply.

take me as an example. I have a few dozen gold and a few thousand CDN. I work most days. I don't fight most days. Others do fight every day. Giving up six dollars a day is of little sigificance to me. It gets added to the pool which is distributed to those more enamored with the war module. I like that my money is 'active ' in a good cause instead of piling up in my bank account. A little like the feudal baron who paid money to replace his "knight's service" obligation.

You would get less from me through VAT, cause i don't buy much and do so sporadically. If i did buy, it would be weapons and giving me supply would just return to the money I paid in VAT. If i ever joined a military unit of course.

jacobi will explain it all more precisely in 5 hours.

We have too many lame duck 2 clickers that work and don't bother fighting

Right now we need people willing to fight, be active, join MU's and fight 4 times per day upon health refill

Tax the HELL out of those lame duck 2 clickers and the people that ACTUALLY PLAY this game can join an MU and get a quasi "Tax Refund" through being supplied by their MU

6%? - I say 60%, If you're active, you'll get refunded in food and weapons from your MU, TCO, or CAF. If your inactive, We'll gladly take your paycheck a few times before you go inactive and DIE

That sound like an answer Plugson?

In my biased opinion the $6.00 going to MU's is a better deal during this current war. We know it is going to be spent fighting and not being horded for a new raw company. When were whole again the $6.00 is probably better off staying with the citizen to horde as he sees fit.

Right now, we are running on a deficit. of about 200k this month.

Either we decreased military funding or we raise the taxes, any taxes VAT or income tax.

As we need right now to get and keep regions in order to increases the productivity of all eCanadian. I think, it worth to anyone to spend 6$ a day, if they can get it back in the productivity bonus.

The spare of the income tax is available to any citizen, as MU get funding based on any the number of their active soldier on the battlefields. They have a lot of choice regarding the type of the organization and commitment they can join in eCanada. A MU like hope only requires you to fight regularly , if i'm not wrong, to get funding.

This is a war game now. A country can sustained on the map by keeping low taxes, as we have now.

I agree with Jacobi. The people in Congress that don't agree with the increase of the taxes are opposed base on ideological motives. They surely are not pragmatics. We don't win a war with ideas.

@Plugson, asking if a dollar spent on an MU creates more influence then a dollar spent on an individual is a little redundant considering that MU's are made up of said individuals.

The true value of a good MU is giving people a reason to keep playing this game. I know personally of many TCO members who would have quit long ago if it weren't for TCO and I'm sure the same can be said for other MU's.

I know not everyone wants to be in a formal MU where you are required to participate on forums and/or IRC but this is why MU's like HOPE were established, so that the "ordinary" citizen could get funding/supplies with little effort

Membership of and funding of MU's does increase eCan's overall battle influence for the following reasons:
- Members receive regular supplies and are encouraged to fight
- Members receive battle orders so that influence can be directed where it is most needed
- The wealthier members often give extra supplies to the poorer/weaker members due to a sense of team.
- As stated above, MU's help keep people active and therefore fighting more

Well, if you see it like that ...
You invest 6 CAD per day, you gain 1.92 CAD per day when you are in a MU or 9.84CAD in CAF or TCO.
Nobody invests, almost no MU eventually.
Or some MU will survive, but each soldier will receive less than what he gives in income taxes. People will have a huge deficit and will stop fighting.

You've managed to pose your question falsely. As the person, or at least the first person in the current thread to say we should lower the income tax back down to 1% you have failed to point out that I also said to raise the VAT back upwards again to something higher. I am in favour of people paying more in taxes, but doing so in a different way than you have posited in the past as being the best way.

I have no problem with people paying higher taxes, I just want it done in the best possible way and I don't believe that income tax is that way at the moment. Feel free to continue to falsely present the facts to the Canadian people though, it's ok.

The government already takes loads of money using the VAT, and they squander it. The fact that half the country is occupied proves that the government is incapable of protecting its people. Add that to the repeated thefts of the treasury and what you have is more than people who do not want to be taxed; you have people who have lost confidence in the government.

Here is why i disagree with taxes increase.

- Like many i highly doubt ill get my 6 CAD back from my MU, unless im in the CAF then i would be lucky if i get 2 CAD back. Id rather keep it and spend it myself.

- As for VAT, this is really a pain in the ass for businessman when we start playing with this we have to fire evryone and start from scratch and there is a period of uncertainty with the price of goods and my concern is people seems to have absolutly no idea on how this tax work, last time we used it it was so high it was ridiculous and we business owners had to fight back for months to get this back to reasonable % and we lost considerable amount of money because of this...

- Since we are constantly invaded we have very few ressources we are already highly handicapped and we simply cannot compete with the price of raw and goods.

Etemenanki is a financial IDIOT - Good at spreadsheets, and thats about it

You have to find a way to tax the barely active and those which refuse to fight

The only way to do this is to tax then on one of their 2 daily clicks...

Minister of Finance? - Gimme a break

I've been CAF for over a year. I've been supplied tens of thousands of dollars when all perks are added up. If u care about money in this game, you are a fool for mot joining a MU.
at 6% income tax here is how it works out for a CAF member (if u play daily u are retarded for not joining CAF)

-pay $6 tax
-CAF current supply for a Regular $200/day
-$194 a day pay to buy weapons and food to defend my country

not a bad deal

not a bad deal if you are a member of the CAF

equity v efficiency, debate in RL, debate in eRep

Please take into account that some of those wanting a lower income tax also want a much higher VAT tax becuase they believe itll be more effective

VAT just taxes the people who are already spending. If anything, they can be trusted to keep their money and continue using it for the War effort, since they are buying guns and food with it in the first place

It's those 2 clicking wastes of bandwidth that play for 2 weeks, earn 2000 CAD and don't spend a dime and then turn into a zombie. Pick their pocket before they do

6% income tax on my $3.50 a day that I get from my Overlords in the TCO is not acceptable! Do you know how much money that is??? 21 cents! HOW WOULD I LIVE WITHOUT THAT???? If I saved that money for 3 days I could almost buy a Q1 food! I NEED THAT FOOD EVERY THREE DAYS! It's the only way I keep my strength up for swinging my hammer with the other wretches on my chain gang.

lol

lol

that is all

lol x2

not everyone accept to have no salary

So does CAF work in companies for supplies or do they just get given dollars for supplies?

If the later is true, switch to commune work (buy RMs with the dollars if you want) = less money needed for your military.