Why congress ISN'T open/why we DON'T publish draft proposals publically!
Stan Wephen
A lot of people have been complaining recently that congress is secretive and that we're not allowed to publish proposals before they've passed through congress. They think it makes the government very secretive and they think its so the PCP can pass through its iron grip laws, turning the E-uk into a dark wasteland of death and despair. Well, quite frankly, nothing can be further from the truth. There are good reasons why we don't allow congress to be totally transparent and good reasons why we don't publish proposals. This article will deal with the reasons why.
1. It's not finished yet!
When a proposal enters congress, it's not the final thing, end of, can't edit, voted through and made law. When something is proposed in congress, we need to look at the proposal, scrutinise it, edit it and make sure its totally suitable. That takes time, effort, and a lot of work. Obviously the first draft is going to have flaws - nothing's perfect at first. The aim here is to make sure that when the proposal does become law, it's flawless. If however, we start allowing people to publish the first draft proposal and read it without the final editing, people get the wrong idea on what its about. They start to misunderstand things, perhaps because the wording is wrong or its not explained well. And when people misunderstand things, they get the wrong impression of it - that's what's happened in the past with proposals. We don't want to tear apart a proposal that hasn't even been finalised yet!
2. It leads to a more secretive cabinet
The reason things are published in congress and not in, say, the general forum is to ensure that the right people hear it and it can be debated well. However, if someone from congress takes that proposal and just publishes it to be criticised harshly, it's pretty much pointless. Then people would choose rather to have more secret conversations with others, in another, more secluded forum. That means only a select few are going to be able to look at initial proposals, and then only a select few can debate it. The beauty of congress is that it draws upon a selective sample of the best in the E-uk, people dedicated to helping government. To lose the ability to freely shoot proposals off of each other and debate them freely would be terrible. That's why we'd rather keep congress how it is - the fewer people that see the initial proposal, the more people we can get to debate it.
3. Some things need to be kept a secret
This one's obvious. Certain laws, such as MPPs and military operations need to be kept secret to stop other countries finding out. If we're about to invade a country, we don't want them knowing in advance! There are all sorts of securtiy issues surrounding certain proposals and the best way to keep them secret is to ensure congress and only congress can see it.
Of course, there are counter-arguments, which I'll deal with here.
1. But in RL Parliament is open!
Yes, that's true. But that doesn't mean we have to do that here. When a MP proposes a proposal in the House of Commons, the difference is that the proposal is pretty much finished - in the House of Commons, you don't see MPs going over the details editing it and rubbing stuff out. But in congress here in E-republik, you do. You can't actually compare RL Parliament to E-republik Congress because the factors are far too different in terms of the way we do things (They're formal and don't published half-made proposals, we do).
2. Why can't we just have an open parliament and a closed one?
Yes, that's certainly a possibility. In the closed parliament will go all the secretive stuff, and in the open one we can publish anything. But when you look closer, there's no difference. Congressman again aren't going to want to publish their draft right into the open because they're worried their proposal isn't finished and they know it needs work. So they're going to publish their draft proposal in the closed congress, and all the editing and debate takes place there. Sure, when the final proposal's been made, it can then be published in the open congress. But what's actually going to happen there? Just voting - all the debate's already taken place. So really, all that's being done is the final proposal is being published for the public. Oh, but look - We've already done that! It's called Government Policies, and anyone can view them on the forum! Suprisingly, most proposals have only about 50 or 60 views, if that. It seems like the people calling for a transparent government aren't bothering to look at the government transparency already in place. Hmm...
Well, that's pretty much it. As you can see, we're not looking at an evil dictatorship government that wants to leave its people in the dark - we're looking at a shrewd and intelligent government that knows what it needs to do to maximise its efficieny and make sure it can concentrate on what making the E-uk better. Thank you for reading, and I hope I've convinced you that opening up congress isn't the solution here.
Stan Wephen
Comments
>Well, that\'s pretty much it. As you can see, we\'re not looking at an evil dictatorship government that wants to leave its people in the dark - we\'re looking at a shrewd and intelligent government that knows what it needs to do to maximise its efficieny and make sure it can concentrate on what making the E-uk better. Thank you for reading, and I hope I\'ve convinced you that opening up congress isn\'t the solution here.
Right. So, in context, shielding the sheep from something they couldnt possibly understand is ALWAYS the best answer.
In all reality, if you dont want people to publish half truths, you should publish them completely, yourselves, by opening Congress. That would actually remove three quarters of your arguments.
your descrription sounds like that of a begnign dictatorship. yeah work of parliament is a state secret. and how do i know if i voted right, if i annot see what my delegates do? that is pathetic, stop your we-the-elite-want-to-feel-good-politics and open the parliament to the eyes of the nation. every citizen has thee right to see the work of the legislative body.
Couldn\'t have said it better myself, Dish, but I do wish to address each point in turn. First the \"arguments\":
1. It\'s not finished yet!
Neither are the various motions being discussed by parliamentary committees, votes at the committee stage, 1st reading or 2nd reading, government green papers and white papers. You know NOTHING about politics if you believe that everything you hear and read from Westminster is the finished article.
2. It leads to a more secretive cabinet
Not if it\'s done correctly. An Official Secrets Act should legislate what can be done in cabinet without full parliamentary scrutiny: everything else should go through the process of committee, 1st reading, 2nd reading, division or green/white paper if a government proposal. Furthermore those cabinet minutes should be published in full after the events which make them sensitive have passed. No-one can claim to be a democrat or a proponent of open government if they don\'t believe in full disclosure and accountability.
And as for the counter-counter-arguments:
1. But in RL Parliament is open!
In this section you attempt to claim that all private members bills are polished pieces of legislation that are ready for the statute books. What nonsense! These private members bills are torn to pieces at 1st reading, then re-written by civil service lawyers,
2. Why can\'t we just have an open parliament and a closed one?
As I\'ve said elsewhere: legislation must prescribe what can be discussed in secret and what must go through the normal accountable channels. Even national secrets should be declassified after the events have passed.
Hey colourful fruit, do you know that we actually don\'t have civil service lawyers?
I don\'t see any problem in the way the parliament is showed.
The final proposal is more that enough to everyone knows about what we are doing.
I don\'t agree, especially with this.
\"1. It\'s not finished yet!
When a proposal enters congress, it\'s not the final thing, end of, can\'t edit, voted through and made law. When something is proposed in congress, we need to look at the proposal, scrutinise it, edit it and make sure its totally suitable. That takes time, effort, and a lot of work. Obviously the first draft is going to have flaws - nothing\'s perfect at first.\"
People are going to know if it\'s the finished version or the unfinished version, we\'re not a nation of retards. The only reason such a fuss is made is because the only time members of public get to see it is when it\'s improperly shared, i.e. from a member of congress in an article. That gives the impression it\'s a finished piece of work and people complained because no one tells them how things are done and what actually goes on.
If it was a more open system, where things were explained properly, there wouldn\'t be such a commotion.
\"The final proposal is more that enough to everyone knows about what we are doing.\"
Hardly! I want to know what each Member of Parliament is saying during these debates to that I can work out what\'s really going on. Being told whether it\'s passed or not, and having the Communists wag their finger at other parties for low turnout or failure to discuss, is completely inadequate.
i see clearly a problem. not-so well established citizens, or as you can put it with a bit fantasy, \"the working class\". is kept far away from political life. you maybe dont see it because maybe you are in the circle of the privileged few. and no i dont think the final document is enough, we want to see how it came to it. what are you afraid of?
1. It\'s not finished yet!
That\'s hardly a valid reason for keeping congress hidden. If it was open everyone would see how the laws are debated and how they can change. The reason there has been misunderstanding in the past is precisely BECAUSE you have a hidden congress.
2. It leads to a more secretive cabinet
Just make it so only congressmen can post in the forum, but everyone can see it. The right people read it and debate, while the regular citizens can see their elected officials at work. Everybody wins.
3. Some things need to be kept a secret
Usually MPPs, military operations without a declaration of war, etc. are handled by the executive branch, or the appointed officials/cabinet. However if you want congress to handle this matter simply make a separate forum where sensitive information is discussed. Simple.
4. About an open and closed congress
Only allow sensitive material to be posted in the closed forum, all other issues MUST be posted in open congress. Simple.
\"we\'re looking at a shrewd and intelligent government that knows what it needs to do to maximise its efficieny and make sure it can concentrate on what making the E-uk better.\"
I think I\'ll just leave that quote here as it speaks for itself really.
UK: OPEN YOUR CONGRESS!
2. It leads to a more secretive cabinet
Just make it so only congressmen can post in the forum, but everyone can see it. The right people read it and debate, while the regular citizens can see their elected officials at work. Everybody wins.
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Alternatively, a new body can be formed, consisting of people capable of putting up a good debate made up of non government employees, that are allowed to post in this topic.
Ideally I\'d prefer it if anyone could post in it, to \"persuade\" the other congressmen, as well as another initiative which will be revealed shortly, that won\'t actually be official, but will show the congressmen the truth and what the public actually want and help them to make the best choice. Don\'t even talk about \"sensitive\" issues being a problem because it\'s simple enough to just create another hidden area for matters of great importance.
The voters must see how there congressmen/women vote on certain issues so they know how they work and know if they are good for there vote or not.
While I don\'t object to a transparent congress (i.e. one that everyone on the forum can see, aside from the obvious national security measures etc.), I should imagine one that everyone can post in directly would be a bit anarchic - on that front people can post their thoughts elsewhere (eRep article, alternate bit of the forums) and if their points are noteworthy then someone in Congress will put them forwards towards the ongoing discussion over that proposal.
Squiddy: Having members of the public joining in with Parliamentary debates is a recipe for disaster - come on, you\'ve been on the eUK forums!
There\'s nothing stopping MPs from holding surgeries, however, where they discuss issues with their constituents (in the absence of a constituency system, people would be able to choose which MP they speak to).
I\'m trying to get one of our congressman to put just such a proposal before the Commons, Mephit. It\'s already written up, and covers just such issues as you pointed out (viewable by all, separate private forum for national security/military issues, etc.).
Okay, I will concede to say that it could get a little hectic if everyone were to post in the congress forums. Instead of a select group of individuals, perhaps an area should be opened within the Congress forums, available to all, to post concerns directly related with congress, that way ALL congress members will be able to see it easily without it having to through a chain of people.
In this sub forum, anyone can post and anyone can view. All other Congress articles are restricted to view only.
Leaving it down to people to get their point across via a newspaper article which said congressmen may or may not even see at any point, is really not an option IMO.
only congressmen post in congress forum, as only MPs speak in parliament, but everybody should be allowed to read it. that would be the practical way.
\"In this sub forum, anyone can post and anyone can view. All other Congress articles are restricted to view only.
Leaving it down to people to get their point across via a newspaper article which said congressmen may or may not even see at any point, is really not an option IMO.\"
I agree that it is possible for newspaper articles to be missed (especially if there is a large amount of publications that day) which could be unfortunate if good points are made. Ofc, there\'s the option of covering all bases by either linking the article or posting the gist or entire thing on the forums.
With regards to the forum, there is a section (if not oft used) for public discussion on politics. In the event of parliamentary transparency I\'d hope it\'d be a bit more active 😉
Thanks to Micheal Collins for his strng support and wise advice on transparency.
To see the current state of transparency in the eUK and how the PCP try to stop it through threats, see KIA Sneaks comments on my article \"RonaldChris attacks lack of Parliamentary Transparency\"
http://www.erepublik.com/article-567472.html
RC
This article provides a totally unconvincing argument for closed government