Pole
direct x
horthy...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Horthy if the link doesn`t work, try google. miklos horthy.
Who`s offended by his image and who`s not, is invited to post a comment in this article.
Durring second world war, under his carefull watch, countless romanians, slovacs, croats were killed, and many more jews were deported to concentration camps. He payed to nazis for each deported family.
Note: i`m deeply offended by seeing his image on this game. Seems to me that we are returning to hatred. Hatred is not good, but we have to be cristal clear about all the ghosts from the past.
horthy`s legacy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF7Wryudu9k&feature=youtu.be
direct x
Comments
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
It is a question whether you like him or not. Probably there is no Romanian person, who would like him. But, just reading through the wikipedia article quoted by you, you would find too much in order to blame him.
He was antisemit as he personally admits: "As regards the Jewish problem, I have been an anti-Semite throughout my life." quote from wikipedia liked by you. But massive Jewish deportation and casualities happened AFTER March 1944, when he was forced to cede the power to Germany. It is still an open dispute whether he could or could not minimise the losses of Jewish lifes between March and October 1944. Probably he could even though he was not controlling the formal power.
He was present in the Nurenberg Trial, but "On 17 December 1945, Horthy was released from Nuremberg prison and allowed to rejoin his family in the German town of Weilheim, Bavaria. (...). In March 1948, Horthy returned to testify at the Ministries Trial, the last of the twelve U.S.-run Nuremberg Trials; he testified against Edmund Veesenmayer, the Nazi administrator who had controlled Hungary during the deportations to Auschwitz in the spring of 1944":
There is one thing he could have been blamed for: the massacre in Novi Sad. "Serbian historian Zvonimir Golubović has claimed that not only was Horthy aware of these genocidal massacres, but had approved of them." - also citation from the wiki article you linked.
Altogether, Horthy is seen as a controversial person in Hungary (I do not like him too much either), but if you want to blame him for gencide, bring up better information sources!
By the way: I do not like Antonescu either, and my parents and grandparents have suffered more than enough from the Garda de Fier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miklós_Horthy
if the link indicate by directx does not work, try to replace the last part of the link with: wiki/Miklós_Horthy
Funny you would say that considering that Antonescu disbanded Garda de Fier. Not saying he was a saint.
my dear friend, how you will feel if i wear an avatar of a person who killed hungarians? do i do that? no. i just want to stop it. it`s not a question of like or dislike. we, toghether, are trying to make a fresh start in EU. still, if you are aware about my feelings, you will see why i don`t like to see a person that under his protective watch, killed some of my ancestors. i will be ruthlles with him. you don`t want Avram Iancu on avatars. You don`t want to see Horia, Closca, and Crisan. I can understand this. Why is so difficult to understand from your part that i CAN NOT and I DON~T WANNA SEE horthy?
direct x: Again: there are indirect evedences against him about a Serbian massacre in Novi Sad (and it is 99% sure that he did what he did and he should not have done it.) There are evidences about his anti-Jewish attitude and indirect evidences in mass deportations of Jews (many of them from Transylvania), but please show me evidences about war crimes against Romanians, Croats and Slovaks. (if possible from trusted sources).
Should there been such evidence, he should have been accused and sentenced in Nurenberg. He was at hand, and could have been taken in handcuffs easily as he appeared there twice as witness. Overall if the Trial of Nurenberg decided that he was either innocent, or there were not enough evidences against him, I would not say, that "yes, he did and I know it better".
Since I am 1/4 Jewish, I am far-far-far away from liking him. Actually I hate him as well, but I try to get over with it.
not all war criminals were sentenced at nurnberg. that doesn't change the fact that they were criminals. and if you want trusted sources you can find them anytime. if you still have doubts, it means you didn't search eunough or didn't want to find them. hint : ip, traznea, moisei to start with.
"Should there been such evidence, he should have been accused and sentenced in Nurenberg."
Massacre in Vojvodina isn't enough? How many did he have to kill and from how many nations to be officially proclaimed war criminal by you?
Horthy never comitted genocide against romanians, serbs and other nations. He COULD HAVE done it, but he didn't do it. You are right about the jews, he let the deportations going for TWO MONTHS, which is a really bad thing and I am sincerely sorry every one of them. My fovourite poet, Miklós Radnóti died because of it. BUT HE HAD NO OTHER CHOICE. When the Nazis turned their eyes off from him, he IMMEDIATELY stopped those deportations. The romanian government let the deportations going for MORE THAN THREE YEARS, causing the death of more than 220 thousand jews. Horthy actually saved thousands of lives.
Of course he fought in the first and the second world war, so he fought agains serbs and romanians IN THE BATTLEFIELD, but he did not cause genocide against them. Horthy loved Hungary and did everything he could for it. And he hated only one thing: not the jews, not the romanians,but the communists and did everything he could against them.
If you know that he did those terrible things that you wrote, then give me source. A historians work is to analize the sources and get the informatiions from them, not to made up things like you just did.
man under horthy, romanians from the northen Transilvania were florished as the gypsies under antonescu.
http://youtu.be/GF7Wryudu9k
You are a nation of savages
Altho I am always against "worshiping" or "idolising" war criminals or people that did some bad things I have a strong feeling that this campaign is only another attempt to make even more hatred betwean Romania and Hungary.
This "campaign" is to make a fresh start. i`ve stated what i don`t like at some of hungarians.
Of course that is the reason. That MU was there since long time, but "no one cared" before.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
We should leave the past where it belongs, especially the dark one.
The New World should be a clean one where real life problems shouldn't be used to attract negative situations.
that's why I don't what to see horthy`s avatar on people.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
/me is offended!
Admins, are u going to do something against it? What u expect more from us?
[removed]
you just got a report, b*tch !
thanks,I think that's how you say you're right.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
Horthy never comitted genocide against romanians, serbs and other nations. He COULD HAVE done it, but he didn't do it. You are right about the jews, he let the deportations going for TWO MONTHS, which is a really bad thing and I am sincerely sorry every one of them. My favourite poet, Miklós Radnóti died because of it. BUT HE HAD NO OTHER CHOICE. When the Nazis turned their eyes off from him, he IMMEDIATELY stopped those deportations. The romanian government let the deportations going for MORE THAN THREE YEARS, causing the death of more than 220 thousand jews. Horthy actually saved thousands of lives.
Of course he fought in the first and the second world war, so he fought agains serbs and romanians IN THE BATTLEFIELD, but he did not cause genocide against them. Horthy loved Hungary and did everything he could for it. And he hated only one thing: not the jews, not the romanians,but the communists and did everything he could against them.
If you know that he did those terrible things that you wrote, then give me source. A historians work is to analize the sources and get the informatiions from them, not to made up things like you just did.
Horthy NEVER LET anyone turn weapons against civilians, children or woman. He never let a single bombing against a city, unlike Winston Churcill for example. And he did not use atomic bombs, like the USA against Nagasaki and Hiroshima. He did not killed millions in gulags, like the soviets. There are still Stalin statues in all across Russia. Why can he be worshipped, while Horthy not?
Horthy just did his duty. He tried to defed our country against the enemy.
you stupid extremists are pathetic with your lame propaganda. go to ip, traznea and moisei and visit the museum of the atrocities commited by hortyst troops.then speak to the survivors. then go to serbia ans witness the same thing. but not even that wouldn't be enough for you stupid people incapable of understand the world you live in. if you don't dare go to this places, just search the internet and you will find enough information, that is you you are willing and capable to acceot the truth. honestly, at this point i'm convinced that you are so stupid that you refuze anything that contradicts the lies and propaganda you love so much. i'm tired of writing comments to explain you clearly and you refusing to accept the simple truth that your beloved horty was a DEMENTED CRIMINAL THAT COMMITED GENOCIDE AGAINST HUMANITY like so many others in the wwII, and that only a few of them were actually convicted at nurnberg - NOT ALL OF THEM. worship him all you want and refuse the truth as you are incapable to evolve above your asian barbarians status. but do not expect for the rest of the world to like this. the descendants of those that suffered from hortyst occupation will never forget and never allow something like that to happen again. and your refusal to accept the truth about him means there will be no room for you in the 21st century europe.
and yes, even if you are too stupid and too retarded to understand and accept the truth, still i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
Genocide against humanity? You call that massacre, when drunken soldiers killed less than 240 people (from the real useful sources) three absolutely different times in a war? You know how many million people died, right?
You know that in the winter of 1944-45 serbs killed more tan 30 thousand (and some historians says that more than 50 thousand) innocent hungarian people in Délvidék?
Even romanians killed more than a hundred thousand innocent hungarian civilians in 1944.
If you call genocide against humanity 240 peoples death in a war which definitely not caused by Horthy, (it caused by crazy raging hungarians, who wanted revenge) then EVERY LEADER EVER LIVED ON EARTH is a massive genocide massacrer, because there were no wars where did not died 240 innocent people.
as i said, it's pointless to discuss with you because you give me propaganda and your extremists manipulative so-called historians where i give you living witnesses and official papers some of them signed by horty. so go ahead, worship horty, deny that he was antisemit, xenofobic and criminal, deny the genocide and the war crimes, pretend that the others were the bad ones and that actually serbs and romanians kileed hungarians (that's a new one! - didn't jews also deported hungarians?), lie through you teeth about everything, but the truth still stands. and your attitude remains an insult, but probably that's all that we should expect from the descendants of hortyst even after all these years. i just hope there are not too many like you in hungary and that you are very young and will learn better in time, or else you are condemning yourselves in this new world we live in.
you moron, if you want numbers i'll give you official numbers : 919 romanians killed, 1126 maimed. these are actions with identified hortysts perpetrators-during the first year of occupation. according to hortyst reports that were found, in fact there have been more that 1000 killings in the first two weeks after the invasion-i repeat - according to hortyst reports. then the killings stoped for a while and began the forced labour conscription-my great-grandfathjer vas conscripted to work in the mine and returned ill to die in a short time. there were also about 500.000 refugees ang evictions. and these are all numbers for the romanians. for the jews it's worse : about 150.000 deported from transylvania and 400.000 deported from hungary. and things got worse as the hortysts retreated. the reason why they deportred the jews in 1944 is that they simply didn't have room in the concentration camps in 1941 and left the transylvanian jews for later, taking care of german, polish and french jews firtst, you idio, and not because horty loved the jewst. but i presume that all these thing do not qualify as genocide by your standards. in your good asian barbarian tradition, as long as there is still one person alive the job is not done-that was the ideea and purpose of horty according to his own words. by the end of the first year of occupation there was left only 1-one! romanian school for 1 million romanians. and i could go on but it's pointless, because you are an idiot and you will never accept the simple truth even if stares you in the face. but know that the others are not fouled by your lies and know the truth as it is. and now we know who you are and what you are worth.
"you are incapable to evolve above your asian barbarians status."
You are probably hungarophobe and racist. Please visit a psychologist to help you get rid off your fears! Thank you, peace.
i have hungarian friends and bussiness partners, so i hardly qualify as hungaropfobic. as for racism, how is it calling all romanians gipsies, a thing that some hngarians permanently do? if i were a racist i would consider you an inferior race-which i DO NOT by any means. but the individuals defendind war criminals and twisting horrendous facts, no matter if they were convicted or if they were german, hungarian, italian, romanian, russian or any other nationality, well those individual stir me up. if the words i user are too harsh and may be offensive for others that do not fit the description i apologize, but the essence of the discucution here is another and we should not forget that.
,,...so go ahead, worship horty, deny that he was antisemit, xenofobic and criminal..."
I never denied that he was an antisemit. I never denied, that he was xenofobic either. He was both, but he could handle it and never let those feelings becoming too big inside him. I said that it was the communists whose he truly hated with all his heart. And I said that he did not committed genocides and massacres.
,,...actually serbs and romanians kileed hungarians (that's a new one! - didn't jews also deported hungarians?), lie through you teeth about everything, but the truth still stands..."
Seriously? You REALLY did not hear about the massacre of Délvidék, and neither of ANY other massacre against hungarians? Okay, then I suggest you to read some source. First of course, only one at a time. I don't want to give you too much information at first. So these are only from the massacre of Délvidék in 1944-'45, and some of them going even to'90:
-Ötvenezer magyar vértanú, tudósítás a jugoszláviai magyar Holocaustról, (1992)
-Mészáros Sándor: Holttá nyilvánítva - Délvidéki magyar fátum 1944-45. I-II, (2000)
Since you said that you have hungarian friends, I thought maybe you can read a little bit of hungarian. If you can't, then of course ther are not only hungarian sources, there is an english one:
-Fifty thousand Hungarian martyrs report about the Hungarian Holocaust in Jugoslavia (1992)
And there are even serb ones, too
-Kasas, Aleksandar: Madjari u Vojvodini 1941–1946. Novi Sad 1996.: Filozofski fakultet u Novom Sadu, Odsek za istoriju.
-Karapandžić, Borivoje: Jugoslovensko krvavo proleće 1945. Titovi Katini i Gulagi. Beograd 1990.: Mladost.
(I did not read those serb ones, because I don't speak serbian. But I heard that they contain the same as the hungarian and english ones. I just wanted to show you that it's not some propaganda bullshit, even those who did it, admit it)
Tell me when you finished these (or any of them) and I give you more books from the attrocites against hungarians in the second world war. Or if you interested, I can give you countless others starting from 1500's to the 1990's. I have read a lot of them because I need some of them for my studies and I was curious about the past too. So if I can make you more enlighted, I'll gladly do it.
harcos012, although you are right, you completely miss the point. the point is that under the rule of horty hungarian soldiers commited genocide in occupied territories and deported jews. in fact, the actions of hortyst troops are the first reported cases of genocide in ww2, presented as such even in german papers of the time. go look in archives and you'll see this is the truth. and since horty led hungary, he is gulty of genocide, otherwise it means that hitler was innocent as he never personally killed anyone. genocide is a crime against humanity.
the fact that the serbs retalieted and took revenge when they got their chance at the end of the war is an entirely another story, which doesn't change what hortyst troops did before in order to provoke such a retaliation. i'm not defending the serbs, i'm just pointing out that what they did is not a justification for what hungarians did before, but maybe the other way around if such actions could ever be justified. still i would like to know how and when romanians commited genocide against hungarians during or after ww2.
on a more personal level, i think that it is your beloved horty that said : all romanians should be killed wherever they stand, even in the wombs of their mothers. you should know better since you love him so much. well, this is exactly what his troops did in romania, in several places, without provocation from romanians. and you say it was an accident because soldiers got drunk? that's your ideea of an explanation? and there's so much more that horty's troops did, but you should know all these things since you are so interested in history.
i can understand that you will defend your opinion that horty was a good leader and not a war criminal, but you should know that i and others like me will never forget the truth and never accept your twisting of historical facts to suit your. defending horty means to me that you would do the same things all over again. in the 21st century europe.
http://youtu.be/GF7Wryudu9k
And this what is ?????
The main problem in this case that the game played by humans. So they are live under the pressure of frustration, stress, powerlessness, defenceless, pain, hatred etc. IRL. Erepublik is a great game, but in one piece it's an opportunity to runaway from the reality.
I'm really glad, if the political, economical and social situations in Romania are guarantee enough comfortable life to the people (but in point of our similar fate in Europe, I don't think). In Hungary it's not. And it's a normal human reaction to defending themself, they try to believe in something or somebody just to survive today and tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Cause the reality is vegetation.
Yeah, maybe shouldn't be use Horthy's name as a MU name. But think about it - you really think that you have any chance to persuade anyone abour that with this kind of historical experience? Come on, don't be so naive.
Your right, hatred have to be erradicated between us, romanians and hungarians. Why? Take a good look on the international situation in the last year, after that remember the last hundred year of your nation, your family and your friends family and you know it. Not for the EU, not for any other ism - just to both nation have the chance to survive.
Only the romanians' task to work up their history. And only hungarians' task to work up our history. We can't change it because of the things I mentioned above. That's why this post is a hypocrisy.
Sorry for my English, long time not use it in wrintings.
Ah, I forget a thing: This MU existing for 5 years on the same name, as I know.
I understand your feelings but you have to understand too you can't do anything without making the things more worse.
It will be a long time to break the walls of hatred between us what our leaders built up to cover their poisonous working.
neah, mamaliga expodes a long later. i had enough with your avatars portraiting romanians and jews killers. i could also bring hatred by using avatars of romanaians wearing avatars of persons who killed hungarians. i just want that yours wrong behavour stops here. a five years old insollence doesn`t mean that is no more just what is it. an insult and an insolece. we will put it to an end.
OK, I write it down once again: I understand you and have foreknowledge, why that's hurt you.
So much things happened in the last hundred years. Families be hurt, killed and tortured in an inhuman war on both side. Those, who survived and remember or those, who just heared these memories in the family, could be full of anger and hatred because of it. And unfortunately, nobody can persuade those people. Not me, not you, nobody. This is the manifestation of the pain from their heart and soul.
Probably niether a romanian can accept this to you (changing avatar, idols, attitude to life, etc.), the chance in the case of a hungarian is much lower. You can help an other man if he wants it too.
Only one thing is what you can do: try not to be filling with hatred and stereotypes. That's all you can do, in my opinion.
First, please see my avatar. There is no Horthy on it. I don't insult you. Only 42 hungarians have avatar in a picture of Horthy in it among the circa 6000 people (I count them for you). That's the 0,7% of the total society here. The complete MU too is just the 3,1% of the population.
If you hate them, it's your business. But don't hate the other 96,9%. Thanks. And thanks for reading too.
you seemto be rather reasonable, but i think you don't have enough data. flaunting the image of horty is one thing, i migh be able to live with that and accept the fact that some hungarians are really dangerous extremist idiots, as we lately can find all around europe. someone trying to tell that horty was an innocent man devoted to his contry is entirely another thing, especially since my grandmother experienced first-hand hortyst occupation and i have direct details about what really happened. but even more than dat, any sort of information abaout horty as well as all the other leaders of the period shows clearly that all of them commited genocide in various forms, either if they were convicted or not. this is not a matter for debate, this is common sense fundamental truth. anyone can flaunt horty's image and say that he condones to what he did, and i'll know that he is insane. but i'll never accept anyone telling me that horty was innocent. that would be like sayng hitler or stalin or mossolini or antonescu or petain or the japanese were innocents. it's an insult and i'll react accordingly. i hope you understand my position and that at least some of your fellow hungarians will eventually come to understand what they are really doing.
I understand of course. Just want to say 2 things:
1. The stories of warcrimes are the same on both sides, just the nationality of the cruelty changes again and again. I heard some too, so you don't have to show in - for example - Horthy.
2. I don't know how things going on in Romania, but in Hungary, lots of people tries to belong to somewhere because feel themself alone. If the prize is to look up to Horthy, than he will and defend it against anything. But that's just an example, it's the same in the case of political parties and it's leaders, religion, some groups of society, etc. That's blind faith...
I see your position. And I see that nothing will change because we write it down here, because it's too much thing on both sides and not just history.
Maybe if our politicans don't play us against us to take acceptable their works, than the big picture can change.
you thread a fine line. i live in north-western transylvania and hortyst ocuupation is not to be compared with politicians lies. was your grandmother forced to speak romanian and learn romanian in school? mine was forced to speak and learn hungarian and was forbidden to speak romanian for four years of her life. and she is lucky to have survived. and there's so much more that cannot be compared. so don't compare things, just leave them as they are. i could get along with you for sure, but i could never get along with the ones that are defending war criminals.
i`m deeply offended by seeing nobody around here give a damn about your concerns.
🙂
Just wait a minute...
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s avatar on people.
i`m deeply offended by seeing horthy`s figure and spirit being used by so called "civilised people".
[removed]