On intra-alliance relations: idealism and pragmatism
TheJuliusCaesar
Greetings, again,
After the last article I vowed not to write again during my tenure, but, alas, flesh is weak and I am perhaps too easily baited. Thank you Yosemite Sam01 for your efforts in this article, I guess you succeeded in provoking a reaction. Moreover, it looked like the thoughts behind the interview could use some elaboration to be sufficiently clear. In this article I aim to delineate and present a wider context for my thoughts laid out in the above-linked interview. The length of this grew longer than I anticipated, but at least FreeGigi has now something to read during his morning coffee.
Intriguing questions on our time are myriad; how an alliance works, how eager are nations within it to cooperate or defend each other in certain circumstances, and so forth. We can divide the approaches to intra-alliance relations roughly in two: to idealism and pragmatism.
Idealism is of these perhaps the more common sentiment towards members of your alliance. Often nations express unconditional support towards other member nations of their bloc; they promise to support the other fully in every imaginable circumstance "forever". Of course we all know in our minds that no alliance structure or setting is eternal, but the unconstrained commitment nevertheless muddies the waters of one of the most important factors in foreign politics: actions and their appropriate consequences (a topic I have touched earlier in the previous articles of mine).
I find the idealist approach rather limited and ultimately hurtful to the internal chemistry of an alliance for few reasons outlined in the next section. The support offered by a nation to another is always dependant on circumstances, to some extent, and at the very least is one of the many shades of grey rather than just black & white. If an unconstrained pledge of support is offered or asked and subsequently broken due to various circumstances, it definitely hampers the development of a positive atmosphere within an alliance.
Therefore, sometimes a more balanced approach is employed. An approach I dub pragmatism understands and appreciates the nuances of different contexts and explicitly communicates them to the other member nation or ally or counterpart in general. It is not "building e-friendships based on conditions", as one citizen put it, but more of an honest expression of actions and especially appropriate consequences for them.
Operating with either approach has, of course, consequences which can again be divided in two categories: on the one hand to those of public level between government officials, and on the other hand to those attitudes and sometimes subconscious diplomatic approaches of nations.
On public communication, as in explicitly expressed between different allied nations, employing an idealist approach can without further communication cause discrepancy of expectations regarding support in each different contexts and circumstances. For instance, I as a president of Uganda would be more than eager to know what consequences might befall for my nation when attacking Zimbabwe, which is a MPP partner of my ally Somalia. If I have been told I have an unconditional support of Somalia no matter what, I might disregard any possible second-thoughts about the attack and then be disappointed or angry if Somalia won't help with their full strength. This, however, should be just common sense to ask how Somalia would feel about a certain operation. But it is to some extent in vain if Somalia themselves just expresses that they will support Uganda, in spirit of idealism.
However, when nations employ the pragmatist approach, a much wider consensus and level of perception is obtained. If priorities are openly discussed and each nation in conversation is glaringly aware of the consequences for their possible actions, it naturally follows that each member is more prepared to act in unison and mutual understanding. There are no miscommunications or misguiding blanket supports, and everyone should be content and well aware of the situation.
The second and for our analysis the more important level is baked deeper into the diplomatic approaches of different nations: one always has some sort of expectations and limitations ready in mind regarding other nations, even under idealist approach. You cannot run away from your mind. Ugandan leaders might, at least subconsciously, know that the support Somalia sends for Ugandan attack on Zimbabwe is probably less than they would give had Zimbabwe attacked Uganda instead. We all know and understand that the individual, governmental and national priorities and resources affect the amount of times we push the red button in a battlefield. Yet, under an idealist approach, for some curious reason Uganda at least pretends that the support should be equal in different contexts and circumstances. Needless to say, it is misleading and ultimately hurtful for both counterparts because of the discrepancy in expectations.
Under pragmatist approach, then, these underlying assumptions and expectations are brought up in the communication between member states, as well as both counterparts consciously understand or try to understand why the support from different nations vary. It is an undeniable fact that different factors like morale, foreign political context and MPP structures affect the enthusiasm, diplomacy, raw damage, coordination and ultimately the battle result between nations. There is no need to pretend the difference is not present, no matter how much allied and friend you are with the another member nation.
I prefer to express my thoughts realistically but without unnecessary harm. Today in the well-written interview by B. Mester I observed that the support Hungary would receive in case of their own aggression towards Romania is probably smaller compared to a situation where Romania attacks Hungary. I added that ultimately it would depend on the member states, as it does. I generally dislike to comment on hypothetical situations publicly precisely for the reason of them spiralling out of control and context, finally resulting in a need of a clarification from my side.
Following the pragmatist approach, it is needed to observe facts as they are. We all know that Hungary attacking Romania would result in comparatively smaller support from the other alliance members than in a case where Romania attacks Hungary. Both being hypothetical and non-existent situations at the moment. This has to do with the context and circumstances of these cases: Hungary attacking Romania (action) would result in appropriate consequences, which in turn are determined by the MPP structure, overall alliance political situation and the foreign policy of an alliance, individual priorities derived from this underlying context and so on.
Complex 4D chess
This very same logic and method applies to each and every alliance system in eRepublik and is no specific to Hungary or Romania or Pacifica or Asteria or any else entity. The amount of support can be sometimes hard to gauge, but it definitely is not equal in each and every context. Pretending otherwise would be disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. That needs to be expressed and made clear for everyone in order for an alliance to efficiently communicate and cooperate.
Needless to say, no citizen or nation or alliance employs fully either of the elaborated frameworks, usually the approach with which the entity operates is a synthesis of the two explored narratives. Still, the breakdown is a useful analytical tool to explore one's own approach and affect it to a way or another.
Hope this rather long article cleared out my thoughts for those interested.
Until the next time,
-Caesar
Comments
Training Wars
Training Wars everywhere
Players killed this game
Thanks Pluto 2k17, now wait for the SWEDES to make it great again 😉
Remove training wars (Natural enemy bonus) = Instant epic battles everywhere since the damage would be spread among fewer battles.
🙂
Power of darkness
next level diplomacy
''Zimbabwe''
erm it's called Rhodesia.
ctrl+f ''maximvs'' no results
y u do dis
I resisted the urge to put covfefe there in stead of coffee in the first paragraph. White Rhodesia best Rhodesia.
oooogaa booogaa u haz nuclear codes now
Uganda stronk, the best country in the world.
Besides of idealistic or realist the problem in your example seems to be communication lol, u can be an idealistic and still tell your allies what u can and can not do.
But anyways, as nakigitsune said, the game is dead and we killed him
Communication indeed is a big part of the picture. However, I do think the communication is fundamentally different between the approaches. But as noted, mostly communication is a synthesis of them both. Intention was just to map out the thought process behind my opinions in the linked interview. Thanks for the comment!
Yes, that is the rational way of thinking, certainly. Pragmatism has a bigger chance of survival than irrationality. Voted!
P.s.: plato, add Somalia, Uganda and Zimbabwe!! These will form the powerful alliance in the world!
Lukematta paskaa
Aina sun vuoks ❤
Luen vaan kommentit
Aina löytyy 5/5 matskua vaikka artikkeli on unilääkettä??
Interesting article. Only TheJuliusCaesar could write this kind of article in eRepublik 🙂.
I think one more thing could be mentioned and that is the frequency of the need of support. I quess Country A, who goes to war only once every few months, would get more help than Country B, who lets is in permanent state of war.
Like the story about the shepherd who yells time and time again that there is a wolf coming and he needs help. Only to notice that no-one comes to help him anymore when there actually is a wolf because he has yelled for help so many times before.
Frequency indeed is an aspect to take into consideration when determining the factors which affect the enthusiasm and the amount of support in overall. I initially didn't thought of that but it could be fitted to the framework nicely. But then again delineating different factors of support would make the article even longer .. 😃
Thanks for your comment!
I never quite understood this with alliances, shouldn't you have to get the approval of the Alliance if you are going to attack someone? Can you expect support if you are the attacker?
That is one of the problems with alliances, you get all the other countries problem with you.
This goes to the very heart of the matter and is partially the reason why broad coalitions rarely work out efficiently. A nation needs to accommodate its objectives on the objectives of other allies, which definitely causes certain obstacles to your own objectives.
However, if one is to solve the problem of differing objectives, the power of multiple nations in an alliance can be great. This is why Asteria has dominated the alliance sphere for years.
Always pleasure to gain new insights and viewpoints on the matters at hand. Thanks for the comment!
Of course you should better get the approval of allies if you attack somebody. And discuss the possible level of support.
I prefer the feodalist approach.
We are already living on the age of corporation feodalism
*puts high school edgy hat on*
TL😉R broh! ;p
All these FA thingies can be summarised with "Be rational and don't do stupid shit." Then I explain how I came to such conclusion.
Thanks bro ❤
Sorry dude, it's called morning covfefe now. There seem to be a discussion about how to pronounce covfefe though. My beliefe is that the second f is a silent f, making it sound like Covfee.
I mean I literally resisted the temptation to say morning covfefe in there. It was hard. Really hard.
Can get that
An interesting point of view
I am an idealist, I fight and deal damage for what I personally think is right.
Pragmatism has brought us where we are now. Do you like it?
Then put more idealism into the game!
Good article!
o/
Luin otsikon, käännyin 360 astetta ja poistuin omaan anukseeni
"That needs to be expressed and made clear for everyone in order for an alliance to efficiently communicate and cooperate."
Actually, you would also need to ensure that everyone understands and accepts that. And you and I both know that will never happen, so basically every alliance is more or less fucked as soon as they have to fight against a stronger enemy.
As you know I don't really play the game, but I still enjoy your articles. 😃
That is indeed the tricky bit. Some alliances understand and consciously keep the limitations more in mind than others. It is dependant on diplomacy whether an alliance has to fight someone stronger than itself 😉
Cartoons! But nah too boring ones. Did not read even those. 🙂
I do not understand what is it you think you achieve with these. Sorry Juulius. 🙂
Cyanide and happiness is life. Don't you dare to call it boring 🙁
Voted
Ei jaksa lukea
Nice article, voted.
Just to clarify, Im an idealist but in one single conutry always are people with both ways to see this game. Also pragmatism and idelaism can be mixed is just aplying logic and warm blood at the same time. I agree Asteria dominates the game aplying fully an extraordinary pragmatism.
I dont know how much time will I be able to wait deep changes that return fun to this game, and stop watching battles with a result made before war starts.
o/
The approaches indeed are usually used together one way or another. I think it is just useful to clearly divide the two in order to gain better understanding of the synthesis employed by each citizen, nation and an alliance. The deep trenches currently are partially a result of different approaches employed with different quality. Remains to be seen whether the exSyndicate can engage in constructive diplomacy to change things.
Thanks for the comment!
https://media.giphy.com/media/iSKFtpF2HzneE/giphy.gif
Voted
Great article like is usual from TJC.
In my opinion there are times to be idealist and other times to be pragmatic but the ones who are more pragmatic always win.
In erep and in life
Katsoin vain kuvat, ja miten niin 4D-shakkia?
Many layers, much interaction. So complex. Wow!
Tuo näyttää ihan normaalilta 2D-shakilta!
When Poland, Russia and Finland attacked Turkey, and their MPPs voided out, Hungary left the Turkish MPP, resigned the Pacifica ones, and set the DO on the Pacifica side.
Hungary's attack against Romania wasn't any different to Pacifica attack against Ukraine and Turkey in theoretical terms, the only practical difference, that is Romania is the strongest country, made Pacifica members reluctant to fight for Hungary, and made Hungary getting more damage outside of Pacifica (partially from Turkey and Ukraine, the ones Hungary fought against for the sake of the Pacifica)
The problem here is not that other Pacifica members are pragmatic, but that Hungary is not. Hungary should have a two-level alliance system, a higher priority for unofficial de-facto allies that are willing to fight against Romania, and a lower priority level for the Pacifica allies that aren't.
You're getting hold of it. Level of support varies because of different contexts. Fighting against Romania was harmful to our FA priorities at the time, which resulted in smaller support by members. Attack on Ukraine and Turkey fitted into our FA objectives of the time, so it received more support. This is but a one factor determining the amount of support received.
Again, I have not in this article or in the earlier interview argued to direction or another in the normative question of how support should be directed and handled. Again, I have merely observed that the support varies, and after that sought to explain why it varies from context to context. I have for some reason received quite hostile comments for observing that the amount of support differs in different situation. I have no clue why has mentioning that fact caused such a reaction.
There are idealists and then there are pragmatists. Thank you for the comment, feel free to write any time. It is refreshing to hear countering opinions too.
Your observation is right, and hostility doen't make sense anyway, I apologize for that reactions of my counrtymen and me. I think many people are just displeased because the game has stuck in this situation, and get angry when it comes to the topic. FA objectives just rarely go against Asteria interests, the present campaigns may be wise decisions, these were blatant siding with bullies and preying on the easiest possible targets.
Sorry, but I won't buy the pragmatism as "ideal" way of diplomacy.
The main con from pragmatism is, precisely, the lack of enough loyalty. Of course, I agree that pragmatism helps country to think before let heart run wild, but excess of pragmatism leads countries to cynical ways and, utmost, to harm your diplomatic relationship with others.
Indeed in the article it is at least implicitly made clear which approach I myself favor. But as noted, no entity employs only "purely" one approach, but combines items from both conceptions. Resorting only to pragmatism might result in cynicism and that would definitely harm diplomatic relations with members. However, I do think that a synthesis of these approaches should feature more pragmatism than idealism for the reasons outlined in the article. Pragmatism itself, IMO, includes loyalty to members. It just articulates the limits of it and consequences of acts violating the loyalty more clearly than the idealist approach.
Both conceptions are probably needed for a holistic approach, but pragmatism way more more than idealism.
This was a good comment, thank you. I'd be happy to discuss the idea more in case you have more to add. Feel free to write anytime.
Loyalty is the Opium of the masses!
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