Join the new world

Sounds good to me. Hopefully the money coming in will be uesed effectively. 😁

Sounds like something that would help Thailand

Fact is, it is an tax increase. And I don't see any reason why we need more money for the government. I'm against changes in the tax system.

@simplicissimus:
We need to pay the weapons, tickets and gifts for our soldiers simple as that. Besides it will help strenghten our economy.

Do we have a budget? Revenue and expenses?

I'm with simplicissimus. Without a detailed budget proposal there is a lack of evidence supporting the need for a tax hike. If government needs to raise money for a specific purpose then there's always fundrasing via donations(so each individual has a choice).
In addition, I fail to see a connection between taking money away from citizens with strengthening of an economy.

Apparently everyone seems to be having problems making the connection so I'll explain it.

Budget:
There is no way to know how much money exactly a particular tax brings (erep doesnt have any function for it) so a budget would be a "best guess" kind of thing.

Again, all expenses are recorded in the donations system of erep because its more reliable than an outside forum.

And everyone government Org is open to public viewing (you can see how much money its in there).


Military:
Donation is very good idea but defending our country isnt something we should base on donations but on a steady income.

Economy Connection:
Our cureency's strenght is based on much of it is controlled by the government. If to much THB ends up on the market its value will decrease dramatically.

So when we use government money to pay for the wellness program or the recruitment program or even the military we are putting currency in circulation and we get a lot less in return.

This is the connection: when we get THB from the market we are mantain the value of our currency allowing us to be a more attractive target for new investments.

Basically, the proposed tax increases are entirely sustainable. I'll give my full support to them.

That said, I'd say that after making the changes we just keep an eye on our revenue, and try to figure out if we can lower them. Aside from that more funding for our military and wellness program would be good.

Blindness, I plan to invest into the eThai economy by opening a weapons company there and all, but I need to know how is the Thai workforce? Is there still a job shortage?

There is still few workers from what I see. We still only have 328 Citizens. If you want workers Philippines is where it's at right now. They get like 40-50 new citizens a day!

I'm for the taxes. It is not a huge amount but it will help with the extra expenditures we have incurred by boosting our military.

If you look at the treasury every day you can see how much we take in daily. It is a minor pittance.

No disrespect to any Congress members but I am starting this tax parade out early with the "no-brainer", weapons. This way we can get this done fairly soon.

I think we can agree weapons does well enough it can take the first hit.

I would need to at least see an estimate of how much the government plans to spend or is currently spending in order to make an informed decision. What the treasury takes in can be estimated at http://ereptools.pl/treasury giving the treasury history of up to 14 days. Without any numbers I cannot support such a plan.

At the moment I cannot see what the donations list for the Bank of Thailand looks like so I'm not in a position to crunch the numbers myself.

supported
it can only help the economy

DivisionBell, I understand you wanting to see a budget so I will try to explain a crude one.

If you watch the Treasury we take in about a few hundred Baht a day. I'd make a wild guess and say our monthly take is anywhere from 9-11k Baht.

Now we spend about 2520 Baht on citizen fees a month (approx 7/day x 30) x 12.

Then we spend on wellness and recruiting. Gifts and Tickets, respectively. Approx 5k paid out for that.

Then war spending is where we will need the extra money. We will be spending gold on MPPs and also paying for tkts, weapons, and gifts. That will get expensive with tkts @ 30 THB Q1 approx, weapons @ 18 THB Q1 approx and Gifts @ 5 THB Q1. It will add up.

This is why we need an increase.

The money in the Central Bank is there because it was issued artificially, unneeded only wanted for greed. It was "decommissioned" to artificially bring the value back down. If we start spending it or releasing it in any way it will hurt the market and both your's and my wallets.

Please understand I am being very approximate. I have not studied the whole ordeal but I put enough together to understand it.

If anyone can correct my numbers please do. Maybe we can work out a correct budget with a few people's inputs.

Also, don't count on using the ereptools, or any other good off-site data sources. The admins are shutting them all down, seriously.

Inaccurate info, Vincent?

What is the point of increasing the taxes of food, so that people must scramble all their plans to fit the taxation?
Also, with gifts, I understand the need during a military expedition, but will anything change AFTER the battles?
Because honestly having any taxes in Income and VAT is useless after this war.
Wouldn't we wish to have food and gifts and possibly housing at its cheapest?

I honestly do not understand your methods for the across the board 7%. Maybe if it was in certain areas, or some ended after the war, but the across the board 7% is not in a fine taste. Sorry.

Perhaps elaborate completely the economic prosperity that will come of this?
Of course the national government will make a few more dollars, but after the war, is it really that needed?

Also

"Then we spend on wellness and recruiting. Gifts and Tickets, respectively. Approx 5k paid out for that."
5k? Hopefully it is more gifts for the eThai than tickets...

But this will be an effortless battle on my part, because we have two different views that doesn't matter to each other.
You did your math and find economic prosperity.
I did my math and I don't see the long term help.

So I just ask to lower the national necessities after the war.

Gentyle, I think those are fair estimates (although the number of new citizens is almost always less then 7 each day).

The question I must ask is who determines how much government ought to spend. There can always be a case made by government to raise taxes because they want to accomplish certain things. What determines what is the correct amount. I always argue that if people wanted government to have more money they can always donate to the treasury or central bank (ala congressmen with gold). The fact that they do not means they do not wish for the government to have anymore.

I strongly believe that economic prosperity cannot be created through redistribution of wealth(taxation). It comes from building capital through savings and increasing productivity by working. One of which is disturbed with taxation.

Kuolun,

I'll try not to be long winded this time 🙂

War isn't gonna end after the Korea/China thing. We have plans to keep active militarily. We will need the money more than on the short term.

I can understand reluctance in raising food/gift taxes but honestly, it's 2% more. Not really a crippling amount in the short term but it will help in the long term because it will allow us to maintain out current levels of Baht in the treasury, keeping it stable in the MM.

It is a matter of your 1.57 THB Q1 food turning into 1.60 THB each if we change the Taxes from 5% to 7%. A fraction for everyone to pay but it adds up to make that lil bit of extra help for Thailand.

"I strongly believe that economic prosperity cannot be created through redistribution of wealth(taxation). It comes from building capital through savings and increasing productivity by working. One of which is disturbed with taxation."

I wish you worked in the RL US Government, DivisionBell. I agree with you in principle.

As I had just said above, the difference is fractional from 5%-7%. A small amount for a singularity but a bit extra to shore up the treasury walls. Unfortunately our low taxes alone aren't enticing people to come work here and grow the economy as you say. We have to spend a bit of money to make it more attractive here through military and other programs. That is why we need tax money.

A Government cannot run on a voluntary taxation system. It's just not reliable enough unfortunately.

I wish there was a way to see the budget, but as it is, I believe raising taxes will ultimately prove to be good for Thailand. War economies always need more money in the government for the army; I'll vote yes on this.

Two points:
1) The proposal to increase taxes is a proposal about going to war.

2) Where does the government buy its goods? Tickets, Weapons and Gifts are (in most cases) more expensive at the domestic market. More government spending will not help the domestic economy. And if the needed goods are bought in eThailand, it's a waste of public money.

To conclude: The proposal is about war or peace. War will be paid by the poor people who need buy its daily goods (food, houses) and its corresponding resources (grain, wood) at the domestic market. Higher taxes on weapons make no sense. If the government buys (more expensive) weapons at the domestic market, it does not matter if taxes are high or low. But the working people and 'not haves' will pay for the war.

Kuolun makes a good point, I don't see the long term benefit of said increased taxes. Other than allowing the government to maintain the power of the Baht. Which from I see is already doing well, the Baht has risen in value. But is the extra money needed? The Baht seems to be strengthening at a good pace already.

Simplicissimus, It is a matter of a couple of 2 cents for every 1 Baht you spend extra, Not a huge amount when food and gifts are under 10 Baht.

If the government buys goods from the domestic market it recoups some of the money again through taxes. If we spend that money in another Country than it is more money leaving our hands to another country.

Weapons can stand to take a hit on taxes. The market demand dictates prices. If the raise in taxes (A whopping 34 cents more for a Q1 weapons) causes people to leave the country for their guns than I'd be amazed.

The point I'm trying to make is it is a small amount. It will add up and help the Government and Thailand in whole while really not hurting anyone individual budget.



Hieu Huynh, if we use current funds to pay for these things we will release more money into the market and devalue the Baht. Everyone loses there.

DivisionBell: Any Rands isn’t a good philosophy in real life, and it isn’t here either.

As for the proposal, I think Gentyle makes some very good points. Looking at the debate for what a debate really is, I think he has the best arguments really.

Ok, back to my studies
Keep up the good work everyone!

Defenestration

DivisionBell: Any Rands isn’t a good philosophy in real life, and it isn’t here either.

As for the proposal, I think Gentyle makes some very good points. Looking at the debate for what a debate really is, I think he has the best arguments really.

Ok, back to my studies
Keep up the good work everyone!

Defenestration

@Gentyle
I agree that a raise between 1 and 6 % makes not a huge difference on individual budgets. But I’m against war and therefore against any tax rise for financing a war (except for purely defense expenses (hospital and defense system – but hose programs seems to be cancelled) or a resistance war).

For the other question about government spending on weapons, I rather prefer to buy the cheapest available goods than buying goods for government use on the domestic market.

Simplicissimus, if you oppose because you ae opposed to war I can never change your mind and I'll respect that.

If there was a significant difference in price I'd agree in buying abroad. I think it is bad to send money out of Country in large amounts though because it uses our gold up. We cannot collect taxes in gold, only what we get donated and trade for on MM.

@Gentyle

I think you got it. If Thailand will go that way, I won’t work against it.

But the arguments in the original proposal were not clear that we are talking about a war-financing proposal. War is a very dangerous way for our tiny nation.

Simplicissimus, I am with you in practicing heed in warlike activities. We are now a member of PEACE so we enjoy a higher level of security than previous. Regardless, we should still practice any caution and take the appropriate measures before making military commitments. This is why I will pay. For responsible military spending.

I'm warily in favor of the taxes. I benefit from the wellnessfare and it helps everyone.

Yes Gentyle we are part of PEACE, but that does not mean we can put our guard down

Just to point out, I'm not worried about my food company Gentyle, it's basically non-profit on my part, but more creation of a strong inner-economy of the DPR party and also selling food cheaply for the populace to afford.
5% to 7% is a difference, quite so. I know it is by cents, but it is.

I guess my main arguement is just the long term effects... I see your points now though, and I understand fully to why you are doing this.

(Oh and sorry for the Org to Kuolun to Org to Kuolun, it just happens to be whichever I am on... haha)

😃

I suppose I will end my arguements for now, until a little later to see if my predictions will even prove to be correct. 😛

"Yes Gentyle we are part of PEACE, but that does not mean we can put our guard down"

I'm the one for more military spending Ziggard 🙂

It makes us a bit more secure but of course we cannot assume total security.

Kuolun, I understand your concerns as you are trying to get your communes off of the ground. Any extra cost, regardless of size, will have an impact since you are trying to work toward self-sufficiency for you and your party.

Thanks for taking a look into it. If it does cause long term negative effects than I will most certainly be there to listen when it is brought up.

I have similar aspirations for a strong Thailand but don't believe the best way of achieving it is through taxation. Private donations have been shown to work (ie congressmen and NWP) in fact a lot of the gold the central bank has was acquired through donation at one time or another.

Taxation always affects moral because its never a unanimous consensus that everyone wants to pay tax. Private donation does not because it is done of free will.

We must also look at what taxes really are which is a forced payment for a good (government). I as a business owner know that I cannot stay in business if i am inefficient because I cannot force people to buy my product if they do not want it. Government working off taxes does not follow the same rules unless all its funding comes from donation only.

I would argue that were taxes at a minimum in all sectors, government would still generate revenue if it was performing a valuable function (ie people wanted MPP, NWP, and an army).

DivisionBell, In a perfect world we could run purely on donations. Unfortunately, there is more people in need than those willing to help them. Greed is beating out thoughtfulness. This is why we have to interject as a Government. Otherwise we will be relying on the same people to pay and eventually they are going to say "why am I paying and other people are not but still benefiting?". Thoughtfulness and caring only go so far until resentment sets in from the greedy not giving.

I personally, on here and in RL, would be willing to pay more taxes to get extra money in revenue when the economy flourishes because of programs the taxes are spent on. I think any businessman would be crazy not to. It's not wrong to ask everyone to pay their share as long as everyone is benefiting from it being used responsibly.

As with everything, not everyone will agree. Someone has to take the hit. That is why we have majority voting. If the larger group wants than it gets. If the larger group doesn't want than it doesn't get. It's a part of cohabitation with other free-thinking people. Something we have to deal with in life.

"We must also look at what taxes really are which is a forced payment for a good (government). I as a business owner know that I cannot stay in business if i am inefficient because I cannot force people to buy my product if they do not want it. Government working off taxes does not follow the same rules unless all its funding comes from donation only."

Also, do we deny services to those who did not donate? Many times it is people who cannot afford things who are in the programs.


Your analogy does not fit because government is not providing a product for people to purchase. It has to provide infrastructure to the society for us to function a whole much better. If it were up to individuals than we would surely fall to the wayside.

Teamwork is what the game is about. I am against taxes in RL because they are abused by politicians and frauds.

I wish RL taxes were as low though and I'd not care so much. Thailand has some of the lowest taxes in the eWorld. If you want bare minimum taxes maybe China might be the place to go. Other than that most everyone has higher taxes than we have.

"Private donations have been shown to work (ie congressmen and NWP) in fact a lot of the gold the central bank has was acquired through donation at one time or another."

Just one thing I would like to add.
Donations dont keep the NWP running. The government putting money into it does.
Just check the latest 1000THB donatio (thats 10G).

The gold was acquired through donation but as we all can see it wont be enough. I would like to keep at least 100G at all times in the central bank, just in case. We paid for the stable currency and ONE MPP and we are out of gold.

I personnaly donated 28G to the central bank, that would pay the MPP (more or less). Now does anyone honestly thinks that 5 or 6 (or even 10 for that matter) congressman donating 5G a month is enough to run a country? I'm sorry to say that if you do, you are sadly mistaken.

Now from what I can see the only people that disagree with this nex Tax plan are those that are against taxes on principle.

Fellows, I am against taxes and wars on principle but my eyes are open to the real eworld. Taxes and wars are a necessary evil.

And lets face it, with a 2% increase the "little guy" wont get hurt.

But I'm more concerned about those that try to protect their companies instead of their country!

Private donations have been shown to work (ie congressmen and NWP)

Wrong. There have been maybe 5-8 congressmen/women who have actually donated back their "winnings" from election. The majority of congressmen keep that 5 gold. The Wellness Program is supplemented with government funding every now and then in the average donation of 1000thb every 2-3 weeks, or at least was during my presidency(s).

The people objecting most strenuously are business owners who dont want to see further cuts into their profits. Kuolun perhaps being the exception to the rule here.

I don't see how strengthening eThailands military is going to help eThailand in war. We're bordered by eMalaysia and eIndonesia. If eIndonesia attacked us we wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how much money we threw at military spending. eMalaysia on the other hand is small and not affiliated with either alliance. They also don't seem to have a military system set up yet (as far as I can tell).

I'm not saying the military has no benefits, though. If we help our allies they will likely be more inclined to help us if we are in need. It also gives eThai citizens something to be a part of, and will help with national solidarity.

We are part of PEACE so the chances of eIndos attacking us is not too big, to say the least.

We are building military to offer another aspect to Thailand for people to do and to gain experience. In addition we are using it to stimulate our economy. The amount spent will be returned in multiples.

"We are part of PEACE so the chances of eIndos attacking us is not too big, to say the least."

Yes, we have no real need to feel threatened by either of our neighbours, and thus there is no real need for a lot of military spending.

How much do we plan to spend on the military? I'm not against it - as I agree that it gives something for people to do in Thailand. I just do not think it should be a huge moneysink.

First off, I stated it isn't about my companies, so why tell me I'm worried about my companies? I'm not worried about them. The way I have the system set up, it works perfectly, and the government makes their share from me collecting money from the Food to buy from the Grain. You take a few cents per transaction through inter-company work.

Also, you have been doing well way before this proposal... so then you want more money to either do better... or what?
I really still don't see the need.

Of course it doesn't matter, it's voted in, and enough people see this apparent reason.

This will, in the long run, choke many companies as what happened in the past of Thailand. It may mind, but honestly, we're self sufficient so it doesn't matter.

This is, in part, a repeat of the past. 9 months of erepublik.
Yeah,
8+ months in eThailand and yet it's as if I don't know a thing to help this country.

I give this nation until July-ish until the economy implodes again. Roughly, give or take.

I'm just really tired of the accusations, assumptions, and misinterpretations. Really tired. How about some people read a book, or trust someone with 9 months almost 10 months of erep knowledge. Nahh, who does that.

To be fair, if there were blind trust in this game there would be about 12 people with all of the wealth and everyone else angry about how they just got scammed.

@ Wiles

The change is for 2%. 0.02 of every 1 Baht. Not a huge amount. The raise isn't just to spend on the military now. We are trying to make sure we have an actual treasury, not something that gets depleted in a matter of 2 moves.

The moving tickets proposal has been launched.