We Love This Country vs We Are This Country
Day 3,012, 11:13
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Published in India 
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by
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by Patanjali
Oṃ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ
Today I would like to ask you about RL politics in India, because I noticed (someone of you posted a link to the speech of Kanahiya Kumar, president of JNUSU, for which he was arrested) on FB a struggle in that field.
This one article
First of all, I will explain how I see and understand things, which could be completely wrong (and I ask you to correct me), then I will ask your opinions on the matter.
This year (indeed a monkey of fire year) looks very elusive, from the start.
In Europe Russia push more and more pressure on eastern European country’s (Ukraine, Moldavia now) and some west Asian – middle east country’s (like Siria).
Now looks like beside the China economical draw back, India seems to have some problems too, and this is what I want to talk about.
Students associations have a left orientation (politically), as it is normal for youngsters that are driven by ideals of equality, community, etc.
On the other hand, RSS is by definition a right oriented organisation, claiming all the historical heritage of India and Hinduism.
Now, in 2016 could seem weird to try to change the Constitution and talk about changing the conduct of India women’s, advocating that they should emulate Sita and conduct agnipariksha (I understand RSS did that).
Not because it is 2016, but because the society changed from the time of Ramayana, humans changed.
Perhaps in an patriarchal agricultural society, following the laws of Manu and the prescription of the Vedas was the true way to follow, but the goals of those humans, that did that, I believe are elusive for us now.
People now want a new cell phone, a new car, etc., and are not very interested in attaining Moksha, nor to improving them Karma.
On the other hand, the new ideas of cultural Marxism, which spread very much in Europe (starting from equality between citizens and human rights, but developing in a manner that became extreme) could not be very good for India in the future.
Fortunately (and this is a weird fortune) India still have enough poor persons to do not became a social state. Perhaps it is not achievable, and this could lead, yet, to a development through competition.
Few words on justice now
Where poverty is a fact for the most of the citizens (I understand 80% of India population is below the poverty income) there corruption arose, because citizens (and them rights) could be buy, for little money, generally.
That lead to the power of the rich people, known from ancient time as Oligarchy.
This is such a kind of society where virtues and values of humans do not matter, because the number of those controlled by money is to high and for the rich buyers virtues and values did not matter. Them only purpose in life is to get more money and more power, to buy more citizens, this year and in the future.
Now, justice is, and always was, a form of expression of the power.
The landowner, be it Maharaja or just a simple soldier, made the LAW on he’s own land.
Those days things seems to be different because now we have Democracy, and ppl. Could decide to change the bad laws. Problem is they could do that only through them elected ones.
Here, dear Shiv, lies the big difference between Ghandi and Jawaharlal, in accepting to transfer the power from citizens to those elected, or not. – mean time, I understand, there is no distinction between the sons and grandsons of those two, because power had a strange capacity, she corrupt (very easy) weak souls.
In the end, understanding that justice is a representation of power, lead us to the understanding of the matter.
I will have no conclusion because I don’t know how things really are in India, but I ask you to develop and to better explain the situation. Perhaps even formulating some conclusions.
Dhanyavaad !
_/\_
Meri shubhkaamanaaye aapke saath hai !
Today I would like to ask you about RL politics in India, because I noticed (someone of you posted a link to the speech of Kanahiya Kumar, president of JNUSU, for which he was arrested) on FB a struggle in that field.
This one article
First of all, I will explain how I see and understand things, which could be completely wrong (and I ask you to correct me), then I will ask your opinions on the matter.
This year (indeed a monkey of fire year) looks very elusive, from the start.
In Europe Russia push more and more pressure on eastern European country’s (Ukraine, Moldavia now) and some west Asian – middle east country’s (like Siria).
Now looks like beside the China economical draw back, India seems to have some problems too, and this is what I want to talk about.
Students associations have a left orientation (politically), as it is normal for youngsters that are driven by ideals of equality, community, etc.
On the other hand, RSS is by definition a right oriented organisation, claiming all the historical heritage of India and Hinduism.
Now, in 2016 could seem weird to try to change the Constitution and talk about changing the conduct of India women’s, advocating that they should emulate Sita and conduct agnipariksha (I understand RSS did that).
Not because it is 2016, but because the society changed from the time of Ramayana, humans changed.
Perhaps in an patriarchal agricultural society, following the laws of Manu and the prescription of the Vedas was the true way to follow, but the goals of those humans, that did that, I believe are elusive for us now.
People now want a new cell phone, a new car, etc., and are not very interested in attaining Moksha, nor to improving them Karma.
On the other hand, the new ideas of cultural Marxism, which spread very much in Europe (starting from equality between citizens and human rights, but developing in a manner that became extreme) could not be very good for India in the future.
Fortunately (and this is a weird fortune) India still have enough poor persons to do not became a social state. Perhaps it is not achievable, and this could lead, yet, to a development through competition.
Few words on justice now
Where poverty is a fact for the most of the citizens (I understand 80% of India population is below the poverty income) there corruption arose, because citizens (and them rights) could be buy, for little money, generally.
That lead to the power of the rich people, known from ancient time as Oligarchy.
This is such a kind of society where virtues and values of humans do not matter, because the number of those controlled by money is to high and for the rich buyers virtues and values did not matter. Them only purpose in life is to get more money and more power, to buy more citizens, this year and in the future.
Now, justice is, and always was, a form of expression of the power.
The landowner, be it Maharaja or just a simple soldier, made the LAW on he’s own land.
Those days things seems to be different because now we have Democracy, and ppl. Could decide to change the bad laws. Problem is they could do that only through them elected ones.
Here, dear Shiv, lies the big difference between Ghandi and Jawaharlal, in accepting to transfer the power from citizens to those elected, or not. – mean time, I understand, there is no distinction between the sons and grandsons of those two, because power had a strange capacity, she corrupt (very easy) weak souls.
In the end, understanding that justice is a representation of power, lead us to the understanding of the matter.
I will have no conclusion because I don’t know how things really are in India, but I ask you to develop and to better explain the situation. Perhaps even formulating some conclusions.
Dhanyavaad !
_/\_
Meri shubhkaamanaaye aapke saath hai !
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I couldn't understand the difference between Nehru and Tagore.
will u plz elaborate...
Sry, my bad. The difference was betwen Ghandi and Nehru.
ah
Because its indian RL
so i just voted
Well, Maniu ~ the incident you are referring to happens to be a very controversial situation that is currently developing in RL India. It's a major crisis & some of my friends are actually involved in it.
I prefer to keep RL & eRep separate. Both function on different rules & the stakes are incomparable.
Let's just say that in real life, I'm an anarchist. I find the concept of a nation to be a construct used to subjugate and keep people in check, with democracy being a near perfectly crafted illusion that successive Governments, irrespective of their political leanings, maintain in order to keep the power in the hands of the few. The oligarchy, as you mentioned, if you will.
With recent events & the resurgence of student movements in India, that illusion is starting to be dismantled & the system that keeps it in place is fighting back.
This particular incident involves a sedition charge against the leader of a University Student Union - a charge that is not based on any evidence, but hearsay and propaganda trumped up by the Govt & the media, that unfortunately large parts of the country are falling for. No one likes to hear that they are being fooled. The law is failing - to the extent that Kumar, the alleged 'anti-national', has been beaten up twice IN the court premises, by a mob of lawyers themselves.
This is of course just one of a serious set of tragedies that have been unfolding in the past few months. But I'm sure you'll find many who will defend the actions of the Govt blindly. As I said, I like to keep RL & eRep separate & have already said more than I should have. So that's that.
Thank you for the enlightening. You know, it stroke me, we know each other, in this game for years now, but until recently I did not really know you (nor I do now, but there are some glimpse that made me have another perception on you) and I like very much what I found in those few past months.
PS
I was thinking I'm a wierd guy, asking stupid questions to whom noboady answer 😃
Heh true. I've lived and worked in villages, traveled the world, studied philosophy, world history, arts and cinema, practiced Buddhism for over a decade and all this isn't even half my story. Am sure we all have many a story to tell & they have shaped who we are, even if we don't always get to tell our stories.
Moreover, I usually try to keep my real life beliefs - political or otherwise, out of the game as I've discovered that they tend to make things messy.
But of course, given the social nature of this game, our built up personas are just an extension of our real ones as well. It's all about the creation of a myth - very much like say even our Facebook profiles are a well curated creation - how we want the world (or eWorld) to perceive us. Heh so I'm glad you find me or my myth likeable. 😉
As for being weird, trust me, I'm weirder than you can imagine. Heheh I just don't a;ways engage in discussions on philosophy, if only because I've somewhat moved past that phase of my life when I would over-think every little thing & try to find meaning in them. I just try to take things and people as they are and just accept them. Hope that makes sense. 😁
P.s. we should have some chai sessions, me thinks. Haha
If anybody in any country shout against the same country they live then there will always be people who will hit them whether you like it or not and whether it is against law ( yes, in ideal world, law should take care of it, but there is no murder or anything like that in this case). This has happened many times in US, Europe and many other countries. Yes, people will defend in the name of democracy or free speech but going against the country where you live will never be allowed in any country.
Why these anarchists or better word is hooligan never protest against rape, murder, poverty, etc. And you will never see any such big hoop-halla on important subject which matters to people everyday. Some here will support these hooligans and some will oppose. That is democracy and truth is somewhere in the middle and not like there are no evidence against them.
To whom we give our allegiance could be strange. I think nation and country are new concept in humans history. We first gave this to our relative, our family, then to the community we live in, and so on.
Perhaps it is a perception that came to me because in Europe there are countless factions in same region (not country, nor nation), like in a genetic mixer and because I do believe that every human is responsible in this (and other life's) only for he's Soul (improvement, development and liberation).
Sure, life in a society must have some rules (those natural I mentioned in article seem the best for me) and subjects must understand to obey them.
Also, education is a very important issue in the life and development of a society. If you teach youngsters that they could do everything (in many countries this is how Democracy is translated - and generally so it is) then you should not wait for much respect and tolerance between generations.
If youngsters see in media scams and corruption, they will tend to learn from it, and eventually fight it or embrace it. Either way, they will no longer be normal / natural, because this will change them perspective on life.
Thank you very much for sharing opinion.
Thank you very much for your answers !
I'm aware the talks about RL are not related to this game but, you see, I chose to play this game in India because I'm curious about India, and talking to you, especially about RL, could provide me a better understanding of day to day life, society and such.
Also, I do not have big interest in other things in this game, else than those talks.
Thank you for understanding !
Where are you located. I believe in Romania but actual city. PM me as one day if I am anywhere near that region, I do want to meet you. I am impressed with your philosophy (may not agree everything) but do want to meet you.
Name of the city is Arad (you could remember it thinking to ... ShArad 😃 ). Near Hungarian and Serbian border, but the road from Romania to and from Europe cross this city so ... I wait to hear about you in neighborhood.
Just to clarify a few things:
1. What official reason was Kanhaiya Kumar arrested for is still not publicly known but police claims to have "evidence against the JNUSU president on the basis of which he was arrested" which is about him raising anti-India slogans during that JNU event. But he has certainly not been arrested (at least the official reason) for that speech of his mentioned in the Outlook. All this will become clear when the police files the chargesheet against him.
2. Notwithstanding the official reasons, you have correctly identified that the bottomline of the problem is Hindutva organizations trying to suppress voices raised against them and in this particular case, trying to brand JNU as a whole as an institute that perpetrates anti-national ideologies and sentiments.
Now, try to imagines what can happen after all this is over. One of the possibilities is that the police will drop sedation charges against the students, even drop the case. The govt. walks free out of this claiming it was doing only what it ought to do in the prima facie of this event. But the JNU and like will be left with a tarnished image in most commoner's mind which will, in the long run, give the the govt. people's approval to do what it pleases with such institutes and organizations but through more official channels. (This can be further elaborated into a conspiracy theory, but I'm not gonna go into that since I have no facts.)
This is what worries me the most. Charging some persons or group with doing some wrong activity is one the thing. But blaming a whole pluralistic institution and methodically suppressing it (RSS affiliated groups beating up anyone who is a student of JNU, some parts media shaming JNU students) under the cover of nationalism whilst actually punishing them for being anti-RSS and govt trying to cease full control of them is a regime I hope we don't descend into.
When I was much more younger that I'm today I began ti understand that some ppl are not to be trusted and that they could be revealed by them acts, words or thought. If one advocate others or even act violent, he is not to be followed, nor listened, if he lies and/or make others to lie for him, if he ... you know, all the 5 regulation for humans conduct (ahimsa, satya, asteya, brahmachariya, aparigraha).
Now, to who did we see conduct like this, or against those regulations ?
See, weird part is that those regulation is the core of Hiduism and the ancient base of indian conscience.
When you know someone is doing a better job that you were doing, the only way to save your image is to show them as being wrong in some other order.
1) When you shout slogans against a country and for some terrorist, you will have to face questions. The question as to whether the arrested person is the real culprit is a much different question. But, no country can allow for anti national slogans on its own lands.
2) It is even more unfortunate that a debate had to be held to decide whether the National Flag must fly outside Central Govt. Universities. The Leftists in my state were debating whether the National Flag CAN be hoisted rather than IF. I mean, Isn't it heartbreaking to know that a leading party questions whether My Country's Flag can be allowed on My Country's Lands in Universities under My Country's Government ? This would have definitely raged some.
3) Even more sad is to know that only a certain set of news gets published. When you know about JNU and IIT, you do not talk about countless cases in States, especially Kerala where the culprit is the Left. I mean, the Hyderbad issue was taken up in the global level by them but there had been an issue against a Dalit in a college here, No one Talks of it, why? You can't attack the Central Govt. with that.
4) Above all, this is all for the politics. Beef, Religion, Students, Dalits, Awards, everything is used by both sides just for their political gains. I see no Award Wapsi now, why? No Elections any time soon. Neither do I see any Beef issue by both sides, Reason the same. Its not Hindutva vs Non Hindutva. It is without doubt simply The Ruling Party vs The Opposition.
When you cant't beat a person where he is to be beaten because of the economic situation of the country which is performing quite well, then you try to defeat them with the Soceity.
Ofcourse, at the end of the day, Votes are what matters, and you dont win if you dont put someone against the other, and thats what is happening.
1. Whist everyone (including JNU students according to their public statements) agrees that no one on Indian soil should be allowed to raise anti-India slogans, most of the protest since then has been against systematic oppression of all JNU student. Example actual situation on groun😛 Auto-rickshaw-walas denying to take JNU students and taunting them like, "OK, I will drop you to Pakistan where you belong" - this is the belief that has been crafted in the minds of common people. Media trials have been made made against JNU students on the basis of some videos and photos many of which are fake (which raises an eyebrow about how so many fake vids & photos got into public circulation so quickly.) So yes, most countries won't "allow for anti national slogans on its own lands" but any just country and its people would not take to hooliganism in the name of showing their nationalism. People who committed violence in court premises have been made a hero. Does this not deteriorate our national and moral values? Isn't this act then an act of anti-nationalism?
2. Is it really unfortunate that a debate has to be held on any issue? I am an Indian too and I my first reaction would be to feel angry when I hear such things and it's only natural that this happens with most of us. But I am not a kid. I won't form an opinion against someone without hearing their arguments in that debate.
3. I lot of cases of both sides aren't published. But it is true that journalists are generally much more critical of the govt. as they should be.
4. On the contrary, the actual tensions in the country are much greater than perceived from the JNU clash. Although elections are due this year in TN, Kerela & WB and vote bank is of paramount importance to most political parties, there is no denying that something sinister is at play here. Seeing all this merely though the lens of vote-bank politics would be over-simplifying and may even be wrong.
Even if it is all just for votes, if the govt is using such a complex issue as nationalism which unites people to divide and win people's votes, I don't even want to imagine what perilous path this will lead us down as a country.
Even if it is all just for votes, if the govt is using such a complex issue as nationalism which unites people to divide and win people's votes, I don't even want to imagine what perilous path this will lead us down as a country.
1) I will without any doubt agree with you that one cannot brand entire JNU as Anti National. What happened in the court premises was deeply unfortunate too, but they were done by a non-government institution (lawyers). What the govt. can do is only act against them legally which I hope they are doing. Media is owned by the Opposition. Almost entirely, no other than one man has had a debate taking a stance Pro govt.
2) I would stay with my opinion. It is unfortunate. I mean, do you need PERMISSION to hoist the national flag? I mean, they had been discussing whether a national flag Can be hoisted. What is the view of the other side? That you do not need to hoist the national flag to show patriotism? Ok, I agree, but then what is wrong if you hoist one ? What is wrong if you are asked to take a pledge daily ? Hey, you take oaths in your Party Local Committees Every month. Be it Nagpur, Delhi or Bengal. Be it be the Red or Saffron cadres, the nation is above them.
3) Over 64 Years of Republic Democracy of which the majority was ruled by a certain party, the Media houses are owned ! They only publicize anti govt. news. The reason is that Funding from foreign foundations are put under the scanner now. In Kerala, 3 major houses Manorama has always been a Congress owned one, Mathrubhumi MD is JDU state chief and the 3rd Peoples is CPIM Owned (they have officially said that and is well known). So, you know what news would get published.
4) Vote banks are used by everyone. Why does the opposition cry out Beef every time an election come? It is unfortunate that Religion, Nationalism, Liberal Mindset and even democracy is used by both sides to split people. But we must be ready to see both sides. The only sinister thing behind this is an Opposition dying to somehhow regain lost ground before the next LS Polls.
My friend, it is not only Govt. THe Opposition too.. Everything from Gandhi murder to JNU is being used by both sides.. Religion.. Nationalism. Liberalism.. Everything..
They can't stand a Debate on Economics or the Welfare of the Commoner.. They know they don't have anything to blame the other on. So, they use such social natural divisions, to divide our nation.
1. I don't know what you have been reading or watching but I can tell you that most Hindi media and even some of the English ones have taken a pro-govt and anti-JNU stance in this fiasco. Father of one of the JNU students was asked on air to beg for forgiveness for the alleged actions committed by his son. A quick look at youtube's trending videos will paint a good picture for you.
I do not know who owns the media but if anything can be inferred from the last general elections when media houses played no small role in creating the 'modi-wave', it is that they aren't or at least weren't anti-BJP. Please note that there's a huge distinction in being anti-BJP and in being anti-govt.
2. Your questions are valid and this is precisely why I would beg you to further look into their arguments before making a prejudice and dismissing their views on the grounds of disgust. Care to find out why they are doing it instead of making assumptions? On a side note: our country has been free for 68 years and now comes the rule to fly the National Flag in Univs. What does that tell you about the state of our country?
3. Again, anti-govt is different than anti-particular party. Journalism by its very nature will always be anti-govt in any democratic country in the world. To reiterate my point, as far as national news is concerned, any layman would agree that most journalists have been pro-BJP for the past few years.
4. Most of the commoners have been strongly polarized towards BJP after this incident. I fail to see how this particular incident benefits the opposition. Those who support JNU's cause were anti-RSS anyway! I have already given you the example of an aut-rickshaw wala who qualifies as a common man, forming his belifs based on what he reads in the news. Anyway, as I said, seeing JNU incident as merely a vote bank-politics is over-simplifying a much deeper tussle.
However critical I may of of certain ideologies and incidents, I fail to take such a pessimistic view of things. Yes, there are faults in all political parties but there are virtues too.
As far as playing the blame game is concerned, politicians are a reflection of the society. They will only take that things seriously which we take seriously after all, they come from among us. So, maybe the 'they' should be replaced with a 'we'.
Again, there is nothing 'natural' about nationalism. Even so, out of the list of the things you mentioned, how can nationalism be used to divide the people of the same nation? Politics is dirty but as I said, using such a ground as nationalism to polarize people will only ideally lead to the split of nation on the basis of different versions of nationalism. You cannot put nationalism in the same category as other things you just mentioned!
But, nevertheless, Sedition against the student leader should have been more thought about. Evidence today does show that he probably is not the one behind it but another guy who still hasn't been caught. THe government did jump into few conclusions. Ofcourse, the reason is just simple, In Electoral Politics, if you have to win, you have to split the soceity into two, Whether the Rich or Poor, Majority or Minority, Caplitalist or Communist, Hard Core Nationalist or Patriot, Fundementalist or Liberal, Beef Eater or Non Beef Eater.. And every side just wants to do that.
"Divide et Impera" was the ancient roman saying, meaning Divide and Rule and, sure, it became a principle of politics (domestic or foreign).
Also, I want to thank you for those lights you mentioned in your first comment, so that I could better understand the situation.
You know, it is strange. Your nick name made me thinking at that.
Humans could be good, true, etc, but they chose to be the opposite.
I believe they do that because is the ... Easy Way, because everything, in time, decay. Somehow like the application of the law of Entropy in social.
We are doomed that everything depreciate.
Life always finds ways. Ways by which it can survive. Man was, is and will be used by time. Time shall change things, for everything that began must end.
"Why must you be sad, when you bring nothing with you when you came and you shall not take anything when you leave, Everything you have is from Here, and everything that you have will come back Here."
This is Kali Yuga, where the Bull of Dharma stands on one leg, The world is shaky, the world will at the end fall, for that is the essence of time, and then the world shall come back into Satya Yuga.