The Enemies Within and Without?
SaraDroz
One method of defining
The word derives from Latin. In Latin 'amicus' is friend and inimicus, from which enemy derives, means literaly 'un-friend'. Of course as soon as you declare someone/thing to be an 'enemy' you are yourself creating a state of de facto war. It has often been suggested recently in rl that NATO should call Pakistan (particularly the ISI) an enemy as we know sections of their establishment support the Taliban etc... This has been rehected (wisely in my opinion) as it forces them to become de facto enemies, which is precisely what we do not wish them to be.
This is why I objected to the CPs reference on day 1572 to the exiles as "terrorists". The implication is that they are not only enemies but should they return would have to face some form of legal sanction. The phrase he uses on day 1573 "ill judged patriots" (which he 'borrowed' from me) is a welcome return to a more moderate stance on the devisive issues which our Government grapples with.
Also it sometimes appears to me as if the CP regards me as an 'enemy'. In ANY democracy, even within a single Party, there are competing views. My position differs from that of the exiles, I did not leave, but I do not regard them as 'enemies', nor do I regard those who are still here but disagree with me (such as Acacia) as 'enemies'. If any rl Government were to declare an opposition Party to be an 'enemy' civil war would follow. It was be wise for our current Government to recognise the loyalty of those who have stayed but who disagree with their policy or they will create more exiles.
This MAY seem like semantics but we are trying to heal a divided community. If we call one side or the other 'enemies', 'terrorists' or 'traitors' we are increasing the divide and only creating trouble for the future. I do NOT agree with those who have left; you do not leave your community when they most need you. Nor do I agree with the CPs policy and would class him as an "ill judged patriot" but NOT an enemy. We are trying to heal a division; let us not create new ones.
So on day 1574 we get "The second half of this Executive order was that the definition of Treason in our criminal code shall be extended to include any military attacks made against our nation in an open battle without regard to citizenship if such attacks are originated from a nation which shares a common alliance with us. (e.g. tanking against eCanada from another member nation of TEDEN). Should an individual commit such an act, and later be granted citizenship in our country, they will be immediately charged with Treason and tried in accordance with whatever judicial system we are employing at the time the charges are laid." This is precisely WRONG. You are creating more enemies; creating division when we should be trying to unite.
Allied Enemies? Facts
Blue on blue?
Like many others I was very confused by the CPs statement on Day 1572; "our alliance is concerned about us...very concerned. It has been suggested that if we do not get our act together, our alliance will wipe us until we get our house in order. I have spent the better part of the last 2 days fighting off this position." Many people I spoke to simply didn't believe this... Which ally/allies? Presumably NOT eCroatia, eRomania etc... Realisticly there would be 3 possible 'allies' who could attempt such an action; eUSA, eRussia and eFrance.
Presumably eFrance would not do this as it would endanger their grip on eUK, which is why the CP also tells us they opposed a Peace Treaty with. eRussia are deeply involved in Sandanavia at present as well as helping facilitate an eBulgarian move into eIran to solve the recent Eden divisions. So that leaves us with our Bro's; eUSA... They of course are helping hold down eSpain but I suppose it's conceivable they may contemplate such a stupid action. So I went to the Whitehouse IRC channel and asked about this and was told "realy unlikely". Hmm... So I asked the President of eUSA:
SaraDroz: "Mr President, we are informed by our CP here that our allies consider attacking us: "It has been suggested that if we do not get our act together, our alliance will wipe us until we get our house in order." Perhaps you could inform me of the precise situation?"
Oblige to SaraDroz | yesterday: "SaraDroz, Every day my in box is flooded with PMs asking me to wipe Canada, sent by your own citizens. The USA doesn't have much of an interest in the internal affairs of other nations, but we will go to bat for our allies, and when Canada is facing a PTO type situation, we have to do what we can. Presidentially, - Oblige"
I said " Thankyou for clearing this up." and received this response: Oblige to SaraDroz | 12 hours ago: "You're welcome. Obviously we're on stand by to assist the Canadien (sic) Government in anyway we can."
Ok lets explore this a bit more: Would eRussia or eFrance (or indeed any 'ally') invade us without consulting eUSA? It seems highly unlikely as militarily it would be unwise but yet the Government of eUSA is 'on stand by' to assist OUR Government? Unless our own Government is also asking that our allies 'wipe us' I am quite at a loss to understand which of our allies has "suggested that if we do not get our act together, our alliance will wipe us until we get our house in order." In other words the CP appears to be labouring under a misapprehension regarding this threat... OR... he has simply invented it.
I would suggest that those eCanadians who have or are sending messages to the CP of eUSA urging him to 'wipe eCanada' cease immeadiately and that our Government request the names of any eCanadians who make such a suggestion in future. To suggest that our allies fight us is singularly dangerous as it will divide alliances; from this only ONE benefits. IF you wish eCanada to join One say so; if you wish to fight for One do so. I do not believe these people wish either of these things; come home and fight with your votes. This is a political division; not an alliance one.
Of the Latest Events
Referendums!?!??: So lemme get this straight (is getting hard)... FIRST a referendum was 'always planned'. Presumably this means before and as soon as the CP elections were concluded. Then "It took a back burner spot when the military portfolio went haywire on me." prior to day 1572. Then later on day 1572 it was NOT RIGHT to hold a referendum as "It was a democratically reached decision by a congress elected by the people. It would be dishonest to fool with it. To do so is to fool with the very fabric of democracy and that is a line I am not willing to cross." One might ask if it wasn't right why was planned in the first place? Nvm... such questions are perhaps less relevant than outcomes at present. Then on day 1573, quite astonishingly, we return again... Having listened to the exiles and in a most welcome effort of reconciliation the CP himself publishes the referendum. Apparently this is a DIFFERENT referendum that doesn't break the 'promises' which the CP may or may not have made on day 1572. Well since he said completely contradictory things on day 1572 he both cannot and must break one plan/pledge. A truly remarkable performance! It is worthy of 'Yes Minister'.
I NOTE that since the 'opinion poll' was posted it has change
😛When I voted there were 3 options, now it appears it was later limited to 2. It appears that the critical difference between this and 'Position A of day 1572' (where a referendum was 'always planned') is that this is an "opinion poll". Presumably (I am taking a guess here) this means that it will NOT be binding and thus acts only as a guide to Congress should they chose to reconsider their earlier vote for a pardon. Thus the CP is not contradicting his (ever changing) 'principles'.
Of course it is a matter of principle for the CP NOT to veto a pardon that he himself voted for? Look IF the vote had been decisive 29;2 or some such fine, Congress is lost and we are essentialy PTOed; I wouldn't say a word and would probably leave for eRomania. But the CP himself voted and the vote was 16:15. It is as if the President has cast the deciding vote. I respect the CP's views on the pardon although I disagree with him, but this 'opinion poll', even if referred back to Congress, is NOT going to heal the division. We will see a re-run and the same result. Acacia you are digging yourself further into a hole of your own making...
Conclusion
I am getting seriously tired of this; the CPs pledge in his podcast to run 'again and again until our former glory is restored' is fundamentaly flawed. He himself has become an obstacle in that quest. 'Ill judged partiots' of one day may be judged for 'treason' the next if they return. Our allies, who we were told are considering wiping us, are standing by to help us, so a delusion or a deception has occured here. Referendums become 'opinion polls' and the questions change after being presented.
I have this suggestion: I am SURE Acacia that you, as I, wish the best for eCanada. However at present far from helping cure our problems you are hindering a cure. Why not resign in favour of your excellent VP and let him form a 'Government of National Unity' that can include any exiles who may wish to return home. The pardon will temporarily be vetoed to alow the exiles time to come home and take part in a binding referendum. The result of that referendum to be binding ad infinitum. You can continue to 'Acacia' the button and advise as a Minister without Portfolio. Sir you have at the very least distorted the truth concerning our allies and helped create the situation in which you currently find yourself. Do what is best for eCanada and resign.
Comments
Is there a Cliff Notes or, better yet, more interesting version?
NATO should call Pakistan (particularly the ISI) an enemy ?????
What are you trying to say ????
tits or gtfo
Amun - a better question is if there is a version with less blatant lies.
Never understood the "allies want to wipe us" business. It just makes no sense. 2 to 1 the messges to Oblige come from guys like ... who were those Romulans again? 🙂 Would be interesting to know, but not much of a threat.
You chose the name of your paper fairly well, coz that propaganda article is surely loaded with bullshit
I'll give 10 to 1 odds that a decent percentage of the "Wipe eCanada" PMs to Oblige come from Aeriala.
Blackmail and threats does not move anyone towards changing their views. It has the opposite effect.
Mugs: that would make it even less a threat 🙂 I did note that Oblige said the notes came from canadian citizens, which would exclude the "expats" and aerialla. However he may have been using the expression loosely. In all, the whole "we are going to get wiped" thing seems silly.
eCanada must BUUUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNN http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/-lotr-northern-war-with-aeriala-wormtongue-gandalf-mason-and-king-potus-1985903/1/20
@oliver
Its totally worth losing a good portion of your MPP's, Bro like relations and be distracted from Spain to teach us kiddies a lesson, cause once we are wiped we start over with a clean slate....right?
- Congress gets elected
-Congress members debate issue of Pardon
-Pardon legally passes
- CP Kronos Q veto's pardon, citing not enough debate
- Names of Yes voters published, another Congress Election commences
- New congress proposes Pardon
- Pardon legally passes
- New CP Acacia Mason who campaigned on Not Veto-ing Congress decision upholds Pardon
SaraDroz STILL Butthurt - How many do-overs do the losers of this debate want for their position?
crissfire: here is my point... I just don't see how there is any risk that any allied force will launch an invasion of canada.... What would motivate them to do so... actually asking a serious question..
I can't imagine the USA will invade because a few americans are fighting against ecanada.. or because the President is getting dumbass PMs saying "invade, invade" .. it just doesn't make sense to me.
What is it that you think is going on (you are likely well informed), and how are your MPPs etc affected?
I can imagine that RW in the UK may be a damage drain... but why in heaven's name would Oblige invade canada to stop a few AMERICANS from creating a damage drain. Again, it just doesn't make sense to me. But believe me I am very interested in understanding better.
SaraD you say the options were limited to two on the poll? I call BS right there. In fact, not only are there 4...there is a 5th option in which a respondent can enter a suggestion. Please...stop the BS and save it. Your article is loaded with one thing only and we both know what it is...When you vote once you can't go back and vote again...IP's are tracked...unless of course you Multi? Tell me SaraD, how do you know that any options were limited...because its just not the case but keep reaching...
Olivermellors to your point. Its very simple...the more our own former people do to undo the work of EDEN, the more we are targeted as a potential incendiary bomb that MUST be diffused. Make no mistake...we may be liked in EDEN, but not at the expense of the big picture. When you go pissing in your neightbours backyard...eventually he/she takes action.
Acacia: thanks for the PM -- I really should have asked you about this directly - my error.. I wanted to make that apology publicly.. but let's chat by PM so I can understand how in blue blazes this "wipe" thing is plausible. I'm sure I must be missing a lot.
As I explained on NPR earlier I don't understand how ppl are terrorists by eCanadian logic. It's OK to steal because game mechanics allow it, it's OK to buy elections because game mechanics allow it, it's OK to PTO because game mechanics allow it. Therefore, by Canadian logic, it's OK to tank against Canada because game mechanics allow it. Which part of the logic chart is confusing some people?
People who steal from me, PTO my party, or tank against me are not behaving as someone on my team. They're not terrorists, revolutionaries, or thieves, just opponents of three different sorts requiring three different mechanics to beat them at the game.
eRepublik only provides mechanics to battle two of those opponents. Guess which.
"It is as if the President has cast the deciding vote."
Wrong...I was the second or third vote...Exalted Druid actually cast the last one if I recall.
Wrong...I was a Congressman at the time...not the president.
I wonder how many other holes I can poke in your supposedly "factual" article...
Darn Acacia, I was hoping that vote would fly under the radar. lol
Lol
Lets start with your 'we have until the 15th' and see how far you get. There were 4 options when I filled in the 'opinion poll'. Now you say 5?
The "Pardon" was voted on by an assembly influenced by coercion and corruption and is simply not valid.
Ralph Kilne - And you have proof of this right?
SaraD - 4 options (3 presented by the "ill judged patriots) 1 from me, and 1 "other" to allow people to suggest a solution. You still don't answer to how you feel the options kept changing once the survey launched...funny how you dodge questions and only answer the ones that suit you
Once again, I call Loaded BS
Eden going to invade Canada because it has a ''minor'' damage drain?
Common... Get the tin foil hat off. Nobody is getting fooled right now about this ridiculous issue.
The "Pardon" was voted on by an assembly influenced by coercion and corruption and is simply not valid.
x2
Also, the CP can exercise the power of veto, so I don't see how any excuses or explanations made by Acacia even matter. Either you choose to veto or not. Choosing not to veto is an implied approval to buy votes for congressmen to get into office in-game and then use that influence on the eCan forum to advance the true terrorism in eCanada. Thieves should be held to account.
I can find room to forgive Rolo and forget the ordeal (not that it matters anymore given my citizenship), but not without him showing some form of repentance and paying "a pound of flesh, no more, no less"
The whole wipe thing is hilarious. It's also a made up thing by your CP to try to make you fall in line, but hey, being a career politician I wouldn't recognise that, right?
@Addy and Ralph: I would like to see proof of that supposed corruption, If you keep bringing it forward, you gotta have something to back it up, you know?
Haha Addy doesn't think the Pardon was valid.
BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Aren't you the guy who kept bringing it up and originally put it on the table, then put it on again, and again, and again?
Give me a break.
i couldn't understand but i will stand for Sara!
voted.
pakistan is a nuclear state, why not try a different plan, just stop killing all the people in that area of the world and go home to america and canada and every place you belong before you ruin the world for all the sane people. 😐
The "Pardon" was voted on by an assembly influenced by coercion and corruption and is simply not valid."
I was neither influenced nor coerced to vote. In fact, I was neither requested nor directed to the vote.
As a result, I never voted. Later, it was discussed that proxy votes would be allowed. Oh well, glad you thought of it later.
I don't believe either side was trying all that hard to get votes.
The Pardon just happened because things rolled in that direction under the momentum of laziness and lack of foresight.
People just waited until the after-drama to bring it to the media for 'solutions.'
Why didn't you look to the media where solutions were already being offered to avoid this mess. You guys passed up an opportunity to get Rolo settled and leave the people in less of a furor.
This is why the forum and its rules are a waste of time. People don't understand them until it's too late and then don't rally when something good is put on the table.
I told you guys I was going to make a proposal in 24 hours, then extended it to 33 and then 38 hours.
No one said, "Please, let me make the proposal for you. Don't do it in-game first."
Nor did anyone ask me to stop the proposal outright even though the Rules of Order dictate that a proposal made without 24 hour notice on the forum will be voted down.
In the end, you let it just happen and my proposal passed in-game. So much for forum rules.
You guys are arguing about a concept that has no value now. When it did have value, you failed to investigate other alternatives and bring in all the support possible.
For such a major issue, why was it just allowed to happen?
Because that's just how things happen around here now.
No conspiracy or coercion. It just happened as a force of habit, lack of foresight, failure to investigate all the alternatives.
I'm only being brutally honest there.
Plugson, I think it happened in part because people were only looking at one side of the equation. The goal was to appease Rolo.
Some people said hey wait you do that you are gonna piss a lot of people off. Those people were tol😛
a) no it won't
b) even if it does, what can they do? nothing
c) even if they could do something, they wouldn't because they aren't like that.
d) even if they did do something, it won't be as bad was what having Rolo unpardoned is doing.
I would say that a) has been pretty conclusively disproven and things are looking pretty bad for b) c) and d).
This is part of the reason why I occasionally ask: how's that working out for you? Or as olliver mentions, maybe it wouldn't hurt to say "okay guys, sorry we made a big mistake" - even if that's all you do, is admit it. So far, not so much.
Okay, good to hear there was some effort, though it may have come up a bit short on logic. From my end of things (without peering into the forum), I saw a very good Beau Risque proposal get overlooked and then had the very narrowest of results announced when nothing went out as a general annoucement to all Congressmen in-game.
I mean...it was the biggest vote of the nation....and there was proxy voting...and no announcement from anyone via shouts or articles. Maybe there was a media and PM blackout imposed to skew the voting results. I never considered that type of influence.
Ironically, the participation on that particular vote was about the highest the forum has seen on any vote in the last 6 months I would bet....
And the only thing getting in the way of this chapter fading into history, it the Ex-Pats own butthurt. Really, they are few in numbers, but high in XP and in game wealth. The population as a whole has not joined their side, so what does that tell you
Is the vote/opinion of one citizen with 80,000XP more valuable than the vote/opinion of someone with 8000 XP?
They seem to think it is, I have no problem with their opinion or their actions. They may use game mechanics as they wish. It only took 18 months to get a majority of congress to let my bygones be bygones, maybe they can make it sooner for theirs...
SaraDroz, I really thought you were more intelligent than this.
Coercion: is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force. Congress was openly being pressured by the PTO actions of Rolo and company and feared a takeover of Epic and so the countries government. This was the primary argument for the pardon. You ask me to present evidence? This was right in freaking front of everyone!
Corruption: In philosophical, theological, or moral discussions, corruption is spiritual or moral impurity or deviation from an ideal.
The Congress "deviated" from it's path of law, order and moral rule in a shortcut attempt to solve the problem of some anti-social behavior instead of staying the course and doing it's job!
Do I think the congressmen we paid off, maybe some were, doesn't matter.
Not the kind of corruption I was referring to.
" In philosophical, theological, or moral discussions, corruption is spiritual or moral impurity or deviation from an ideal.
The Congress "deviated" from it's path of law, order and moral rule "
It deviated from YOUR ideal path of law, order, and moral rule. Just because the standards for other people don't overlap yours doesn't mean they lack the qualities all together. It's our differences that make us special.
Their "standards" were compromised, mine remain.
@Muglack: We know very well about your moral standartsThey are what got Rolo elected and fired in the first place. And they ver. y well fit my definition of corruption. Therefore Ralphs argument remains valid.
Fixed this for you Thief.
- Thief steals thousands of gold
- Thief becomes a serial PTOer and vote buyer using his ill-gotten gold.
- Corrupt congress gets elected
- Corrupt congress members debate issue of Pardon
- Pardon passes through a corrupt congress
- CP Kronos Q veto's pardon, citing not enough debate
- Names of Yes voters published, another Congress Election commences
- Thief has ever-increasing influence in congress due to vote buying and 4-5 PTO'd parties.
- Democracy is shattered in eCanada.
- New corrupt congress proposes Pardon
- Pardon passes through corrupt congress.
- Corrupt CP Acacia Mason who campaigned on Not Veto-ing Congress, because he knows congress is also corrupt and was exhibiting forethought, did not veto the corrupt congress. What a surprise.
its pretty easy to label people as corrupt Lucasmon
whats your proof?
At which part did lucasmon eat a spicy Taco, take a crap which resulted in MASSIVE BUTTHURT?
And who did you follow in eating said spicy taco?, you're not one to ever have your own ideas.....
A few spoilt children did not get there own way, and now seek to hold Canada to ransom, they are no better than those they accuse. It was voted and passed twice, get over it.
Also as most of you are now US citizens, go stick your nose in US politics, that's your home now, you gave up any right to meddle in Canadian affairs when you changed citizenship.
The Pardon was voted (for the most part) by citizens who were elected fairly, accepted no bribes, and are in no way corrupt. Ralph kiline's commetn disgusts me.
Grow up.
This article lacks hot chicks.
Dierios.
Can you explain why Alias Vision's poll had a whopping 81% for those who did not approve of the Pardon:
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/pardon-interruptions-survey-results-and-more--1983221/1/20
Can you explain why Congress does not represent that demographic? Do you want to really call eRep elections democratic? Do you even know what safeguards are in place for democratic elections, such things as voter lists and fraud prevention?
Do these measures exist in eRep?
Looking the other way and believing a word called 'elections' is demographic when it cannot be proven to be so does not mean elections are meant to represent the will of the players. It is the will of the few who are active enough to get into Congress. Those are the watchmen over the interests of eCanada. There is no sufficiently active and aware public (except those like Rigour, mellors, Kline, and Addy) to watch over those guards. The 'shepherds' led the flock to slaughter...or maybe just the loss of some bonuses.
Don't play the fairytale story.."The Pardon was a Democratically Supported Decision."
There is no evidence to support the fact that it was, yet plenty to suggest otherwise, for those who have been paying attention.
One bit of proof: It was not democratic because at least one active Congressman did not cast a vote when he could have. There was no avenue to cast a vote. One vote against the pardon would have stalled it.
The process had shortcomings gathering respondents, did not represent the majority of the people, and pretty much pissed off a large part of major contributors to eCanada.
Democracy in action, huh? Maybe not corrupted yet certainly not functionable.
I don't know about all you other eCanadians who Rolo stole soooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccchhhhhhhh gold from but my butt hurts from Rolo's yanking out ALL that GOLD out of our treasury... Why not let the pardon stick and then just ex-communicate Rolo and his doushbag buddy Wally and anyone else who associates with Norsefire. Why don't more players stand up for eCanada instead of bending over for Norsefire after slathering on a generous dose of vasillene?
Plugson, there is no evidence to say that it wasn't. If you remember there were condititions to the "pardon" (if it should have even been called that). If you really think that many well informed congressmen who for the most part are fed up with the same shit happening everymonth decided to try something diffferent is the "worst" most trecherous, horrible, undeserving thing this country has done. then leave. You obviously have no idea what's been going on for years now. We have obviously been doing something wrong for a long, long time. the only reason this motion passed was for the implicit reason that rolo was going to "cooperate" and the fact that it was even overturned by a veto in the first place was undemocratic. Your argument of congress peoples not being involved on the forums is irreilivent. because every month there is ALWAYS congressmen who don't vote on important issues. . So before you go pointing the finger at honest, decent congressmen (who are only asked to do what THEY think is best for the country) Why not take your head out of your back end and realize that what's been done, was done fairly. The fact that this is even an issue still is ridiculous. Your actions (and others) has only left this country worse. The better thing to have done would have been to wait to see if rolo was actually going to do something bad after accepting the pardon rather then complain because "your side" lost fairly.
But hey, Keep pointing the finger and make things worse.