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The Economist ~ Notes on taxation and society

Day 2,140, 11:00 Published in China Poland by Spite313


Dear friends,


The world is changing all the time, and the latest big change - combat orders - are finally being understood by players and governments. Their effect is not just to replace weapons supplies as the main way of “hiring” foreign troops to defend your country, it also funnels existing damage toward the correct battle. Players are more likely to fight in a CO battle, even if the money is insignificant. However, no matter how low CO prices are, it’s still a lot of money. It’s quite possible to spend tens of thousands of currency in a single round- mainly on division 4.


Now this change has brought a big decision on most countries. For those nations regularly at war, either offensively (like Poland) or defensively (like the USA), the enormous cost of CO is rapidly becoming prohibitive. Even with big, wealthy populations, low taxes mean that they cannot afford to be paying CO each day. The USA recently responded to this by raising taxes, which then led to a flood of citizens leaving the country. Not all nations are as tax-phobic (I just made that word up, go me) as the RL USA, but still, you can imagine raising tax will be a future point of conflict in most big nations.


For me there are two emerging models of government. The first, epitomised by the eUSA, is a big statist model, where the government controls most funds, most military units and takes responsibility for the defence of the country. As a result, taxes are raised. The advantage of this system is that damage can be directed precisely (via CO), at the right time and unreliant on anyone other than the President and someone with a MU. The disadvantage is that when you bleed your citizens with high taxes, they’re not too keen on spending any of their own money. They become dependent on the government, and expect them to pay for everything.



Even hipsters know it


The second model, which is the one I am pleased to say is emerging in my own native UK, is that of collective responsibility. In the UK taxes are incredibly low, the government plays a minimal role in society, and everything from new player help to combat orders is provided by private organisations, political parties, military units and citizens. When the UK came under attack during the Epic Warfare competition, the vast majority of the cost was borne by citizens, who paid for their own weapons, food, set combat orders and donated supplies to each other to fight.


For me the second model is not only more efficient, it represents a healthier attitude for society to have. It was a risk we took, since there are none of the guarantees the government model represents. The UK is not exactly the friendliest of places, with lots of rivalries and inter-party squabbling. But the risk was borne out as the whole country got together and made a collective effort to pay for and support each other. In my opinion, this not only won us the wars, it gave us a stronger sense of community than years of government led action.


Now the world is changing and many countries are coming to the point where they can no longer afford to go on as they have been. People will be discussing which of these models - or possibly a third - to follow. I am not sure our little model would work in a bigger country, but I’d be interested to see how it went anyway. Sometimes you just need to take a risk and give up central control, and watch how people thrive and develop themselves in their new found freedom.


For years the government has held responsibility for retention, for developing players. This has mainly involved freebies, and leading players by the nose. Instead of this top down method, maybe we should take a new angle. We should give power and responsibility to new players, let them make the big decisions. Let them grow themselves, and understand that there is no such thing as government as an entity separate from the collective will of the citizens they represent. There is nobody to blame but yourself, and when you win, it is you who did it, not some shadowy governmental leviathan.


Just a few Sunday night thoughts ~


Iain


 

Comments

Invalidation
Invalidation Day 2,140, 11:03

IMPERIUM

Alphabethis
Alphabethis Day 2,140, 14:07

collective responsibility in eUK? YOU MUST BE JOKING MATE ... btw, eUK is fully irrelevant militarily and it seldom pays CO...
give responsabilities to new players? LOL, jajajaja... come on ... refund my time for lightly scanning over this article.

Alphabethis
Alphabethis Day 2,140, 14:09

Keers, beware of putting so many nonsenses together,... Galileo Galilei or Archimedes may resurrect just for correcting such wrong reasonings.

Invalidation
Invalidation Day 2,140, 14:27

Those replies are not pertinent to my comment

Alphabethis
Alphabethis Day 2,140, 14:37

They are pertinent to this space of the screen.

Invalidation
Invalidation Day 2,140, 14:38

They are entirely inane and would be best unsaid, its easier to like a silent idiot - however you insist on allowing your ignorance to show.

Tialys Cypress
Tialys Cypress Day 2,140, 11:04

o7

Prince Sheogorath
Prince Sheogorath Day 2,140, 11:05

Some good points!

The continuous rising costs of Combat Orders while people's strength continues to increase is rendering Combat Orders not only less effective, but more expensive. Falling tax revenue as prices fall back again is also making eUSA's model of government unsustainable.

The citizens picking up most of the bill in the eUK has been a formula for success so far.

Jamie2721
Jamie2721 Day 2,140, 11:09

Raising taxes and watch everyone leave seems it won't be the best idea

chickensguys
chickensguys Day 2,140, 11:10

Calling Kemal to defend.

Cluster Storms
Cluster Storms Day 2,140, 11:12

o/

SvakoDobro
SvakoDobro Day 2,140, 11:13

Nice Sunday night thoughts.
voted.

BeJIuKaH
BeJIuKaH Day 2,140, 11:17

Nice one

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 11:21

The eUS model is better suited for eUS for a variety of reasons. There are lots of foreigners (either allies or PTOers) who have their own battle priorities, like JCS hitting for EDEN in the past, and Serbian PTO team hitting for TWO. These people would spend their money on irrelevant battles if not taxed. There are also a lot more whale-scale gold-buyers in the eUS who make MUs/Political Parties subservient to their personal interests by funding them. In absence of a strong government, this negative effect on politics is exacerbated.

Valiant Thor
Valiant Thor Day 2,140, 16:02

Iain's subtle propaganda is amazing: first he is full of praise about how the political decentralized tax-heaven UK is a doing the next big thing: a revolutionary new model of government quickly adapted to the recent change in game mechanics, pointing his finger at the USA, a relic from the past on his road to ruin. In the same article he doubts that it is a workable solution for much larger countries, but he would love to see it set up.


Iain, WHY DON?T YOU TRY IMPLEMENTING YOUR SUPERIOR MODEL OF GOVERNING TO THE COUNTRY WHERE YOU RESIDE AT THE MOMENT AND HOLD THE MOFA OFFICE - PR CHINA?
WHAT'S HOLDING YOU BACK?
YOU HAVE A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY AT THIS MOMENT AND I AM SURE IT WOULD MAKE YOUR CASE FAR MORE CREDIBLE!



SHOW US THIS WONDERFUL EVOLUTION OF SOCIETY!!!




Damn, that CapsLock malfunction again

WayneKerr
WayneKerr Day 2,140, 16:38

What I get from your comment is that you believe that eUS is right to tax your people because you can't/don't want to trust some of them with their own money?

Valiant Thor
Valiant Thor Day 2,140, 17:04

No, you don't get it, obviously. It's about different concepts being applied under different circumstances on different subjects.
But it's mostly about someone's inadequate interpretations of false data in fake propaganda.

WayneKerr
WayneKerr Day 2,140, 17:36

You have such a hard on for me... getting sick of seeing your name in my alerts!

I understand perfectly. He used two of the most contrasting styles he could find. eUSA's top down approach and eUK's bottom up approach to illustrate his point of different methods of governing within the game. He even goes on to say that the style he champions would maybe not work in other countries, but nonetheless he would be interested in seeing the results.

Due to the 'oh so great eUSA, those who can do no wrong, saviours of the eWorld, righters of wrongs etc etc' being mentioned you got ya knickers in a twist...

Valiant Thor Day 2,141, 08:01

Comment deleted

Valiant Thor
Valiant Thor Day 2,141, 08:11

Well Wayne, I don't see me following your around and posting after every comment. And you are great in repeating what has been said before. Maybe you need to read again all the above to make any valid statement with substance?
Or you can try for once to actually replay, like to this:

The current Governor of PR China is on a dangerous path: he is using his office to influence public opinion and has only one agenda: bringing China into TWO. In his former article he advocates the invasion of Serbia/TWO to India and the wipe of Albania, Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina. If this is China's official policy then maybe those countries need to rethink their position and drop their MPPs with PRC.

WayneKerr
WayneKerr Day 2,141, 08:40

Are you seriously that behind on current affairs? It's a well known fact Iain is in China to court them. One man's opinion does not form the opinion of the entire community...

WayneKerr
WayneKerr Day 2,140, 11:24

eUK ahead of the curve...

nW0lf
nW0lf Day 2,140, 11:54

v

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 12:04

Kemal, you're just making my argument for me. If you deny most of your population any stake in how your country is run, the only way to get any money out of them is to tax them. The reason why the USA cannot adopt our model is because it's a profoundly elitist and undemocratic country which basically derides anyone with an idea of their own. Your forums are populated by hostile manchildren and your governments are always full of god-complex gold buyers. The only way you can get your citizens to support that is by robbing them. No wonder they all want to leave.

olivermellors
olivermellors Day 2,140, 12:49

"Kemal, you're just making my argument for me" x2

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 12:58

You are just a fool who cannot participate in a reasonable discussion. We do not deny the population any stake in how the country is run with the exception of the TWO PTOers. If you are going to tell us that Ajay and his merry bunch of idiots deserve a say in the government, you can have a look at all the rogue proposals they made which aimed to send money from the eUS treasury to Serbian organizations. Sorry dear [insert flashy title here whose job is to do nothing] of TWO/ONE/PHX, we don't really want to drive our country down the path of ruin and have a puppet of TWO as our president.

As for the manchildren on the eUSforums, I saw none besides someone called Iain Keers talking BS about the defunct idea of nation-building and getting served by people of higher intellectual capacity. If you are so butthurt about being belittled, try to improve your intellectual capacity. A good starter would be your RL country's history. See how well that imperialism/colonialism went for you. Try to learn from your mistakes.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 13:05

Oh and I don't check your article every minute. If you have a reply to what I say, post it so that it alerts me.

olivermellors
olivermellors Day 2,140, 13:37

And the insult fest begins – agreed that Keers started it.
So: the strong central government model may be more suitable for America, and certainly you two seem to agree it does exist. I’m perplexed about the adoption of a tax system which foreseeably tends to erode the community. I take the point that there may be diverse interests but I would think it possible to tap into a common overarching desire: regain bonuses. JCS boys hitting for Eden can be persuaded to do the utmost to regain bonuses because it is in their interest. Same with most Americans. Even those who change citizenships, thus not contributing their taxes, often do so in order to help regain bonuses, and it has been policy to encourage just that. The associated issue is one of timely engagement with the population. Telling them in detail what you have already done is probably less beneficial than involving everyone in an ongoing discussion – that builds a sense of joint commitment and generates new solution matrices. Whether that is suitable for America is debatable, which brings us to Kemal’s first point.
Kind regards

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 13:09

Again, it's attitudes like that which make my argument for me. I don't even need to reply, because you're making yourself look worse than I ever could.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 13:51

I wrote "if you have a reply to what I say, post it so that it alerts me," so unless you lack basic comprehension skills, you intentionally did not reply to one of my comments so that you do not receive a retort. As clearly evidenced by your inability to reply, you are wrong and cannot find any meaningful arguments beyond resorting to ad hominems. Classic Iain.

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 13:58

Again, major attitude problem. I didn't reply to your comment because there was nothing to reply to. You went on a big long insulting rant and proved my point that the eUSA is childish and hostile to ideas. I don't need to argue with you, because every point you made in favour of your position simply reinforced mine.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 14:05

Again, you did not reply to my comment. I have written a perfectly valid and non-insulting answer to your article, and what you did was to attack me and slander eUS on loose grounds that has nothing to do with reality, and reeks of your jealousy and enmity that cannot be suppressed. If you are unable to conduct a discussion on the theory of good governance without resorting to insults, it is you, not I that has an attitude problem.

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 14:11

Jealousy? What? I don't see any points that I'm supposed to respond to, all you said is you think that taxing your citizens into the ground is the only way to get money out of them. I disagree, and I think that creates a situation where the state is resented and blamed for everything. Which you pretty much have right now.

By the way, I don't do titles. I even wrote an article about it. It tends to go to people's heads when people start roleplaying that they're important.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 14:31

You have a deficit of reading comprehension, because my post doesn't say any of that. Either you are delusional, or are being a hypocrite on purpose.

Hale26
Hale26 Day 2,140, 13:10

Iain, you make it sound like eAmerica is a tightly controlled place. If we don't like you, or disagree with you, you can't get a job here. This is wrong for a multitude of reasons.

The first being our Party Culture. eAmerica has an extremely active party culture for an eNation. Parties are very competitive and are always seeking new talent. So, do tell, how does the majority of our population get denied a stake in running the country if people are begging to give them jobs?

Also, you seem to be unaware that every party and quite a few MUs have their own forums. Gen. Erep in no way represents eAmerica. Hell, I'm a former 3-time PP of the #3 party and I used them....twice, maybe?

I could go on about how our "elite" are actually very easy to reach or how a nation with active IRC like ours generally can't be too closed off but....I believe I've made my point.

The whole premise behind your comparisons is to make the eUK, a small, weaker nation look morally superior to the eUS. Think we can call it a day and say you failed at that, no?

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 13:15

Firstly, your President and congress were basically decided behind closed doors for how long? Not what I'd call a "vibrant party culture".

Secondly, I'm not trying to look morally superior. I don't see how taxation is a moral issue. I just think our system produces happier players and a more cohesive community, whilst at the same time providing adequately for our needs. The eUK is very happy with our position in the world, we don't need to go round penis waving, we're a small fairly insignificant nation who does quite well on the fringes of the alliance scene.

Tiamati
Tiamati Day 2,140, 13:39

Congratulations Hale26; you've convinced me with this comment thread that it is time to dust off my newspaper.

The eUS's recent congressional act contains verbiage proving just how tightly controlled purse-strings really are if you take the time to read it properly. In-fighting leading to DOZENS of separate forums; admin's choice of parliamentary elections merely tighten the stranglehold on the average eAmerican to either conform or be taxed to death by those whom only care about how much CC is in their own coffers.

I remember hearing the eUK treasury donated to each citizen a portion of a massive surplus during v2; instead eAmerica wishes to hoard like Smaug.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 13:53

> Calls eUS elitist and undemocratic
> Is in a position of power, or acts as a manipulator in eUK politics since before I started this game.
> #consistency

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 14:03

I don't think being active in the eUK makes me elitist. I'm all to happy to give power away, I don't tell people what to do, I just voice my opinion. If people choose to listen to me that's fine, if they don't that's fine too.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 14:10

That's exactly what I do as well, but I am called an elitist, whereas you are a man of the people. I guess the difference lies in being Iain Keers, who is by default not elitist, correct?

Spite313
Spite313 Day 2,140, 14:13

No, the difference is we don't decide our next CP behind closed doors then force everyone to back them, or do the same with congress. We don't arrogantly suppress any dissent for the good of the state, or use the "PTO threat" as the final argument in any debate. We don't go round threatening allies and then blaming them when they don't help us. We don't lie and deceive our population about this for "their own good" because they're not clever enough to understand.

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 14:16

Oh yes, we send gangsters to people's houses and FORCE them to vote for a particular candidate, because you know, we can observe their votes. Stop already with the cheap propaganda, you sound like a British smee again.

HeapSeppo
HeapSeppo Day 2,140, 15:14

Iain, dear god. Do you think we are some kind of eThugs that will beat you up for not voting a specific way? I'd say that I'm a pretty good proof that we don't. I ran my campaign, I got on the ballot and got close to 15% of the votes. I'm somehow alive still even though eUS is full of eThugs that will just beat you up for not doing as they want?

The CP isn't decided behind walls. Right now anyone can sign up for the parties primaries and each party decide their own candidate. If there are 4 different candidates in the parties then people will be on a ballot. And then it's the best campaigner that wins. Sounds like we are complete eThugs doesn't it?

You honestly don't think the PTO threat in USA is real? I'd say you need to look shit up then. Last month they granted A LOT of serbs access to eUS.

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eisenmutter2
eisenmutter2 Day 2,140, 14:53

"If you deny most of your population any stake in how your country is run, the only way to get any money out of them is to tax them."

in germany a part of the population is PRO fighting poland which would mean a wipe for the next couple of month for sure. these people even used state supplies to fight and fight against the treaty and after that were banned from state supplies.

there are just some topics on which a state has to get all people in line. and the state chose to let people b!tch about germany being polands lapdog over a short war-adventure and a long wipe-winter.

and yes it is the oldfags in government pro treaty and newbies against treaty. and there is no undemocratic elitist stuff involved in the desicion-making but only the experience of the oldfags that being wiped for month is even worse than what they have now - and the people would quit even faster with no country than now.

if you then want the normal people who in majority don't even know basic game mechanics making the decisions on state level....

Archfeldspar
Archfeldspar Day 2,140, 15:11

"Undemocratic" is a very precise definition of the current status, taxes raised and no ACCOUNTING (online) of exactly where all the money goes. The "finance 'spokesman'/guy (who holds THREE finance related jobs with conflicting duties, never provides any numbers on line only platitudes about "state secrecy" and "motherhood and apple pie". All he admitted in the last comment article's was ha "he stopped taking money for the incis a year ago. Big deal.

Valiant Thor
Valiant Thor Day 2,140, 17:07

Please do give us a link where we can check (online) the ACCOUNTING and where the money goes in your country; Hungary.

Archfeldspar
Archfeldspar Day 2,140, 17:22

Sure....right in the SHOUTS:
Gotta learn Hungarian though, but the amounts provided are in Arabic
szekely ostor wrote 7 days ago
Medáladóhivatal jelentés:
503,56 gold és 40543,31 HUF van a kasszában.
Vásároltak HUF-ot, azé haladtuk meg az 500 gold értéket. Kinek kell HUF szoljon. Köszi
Comment · Vote

That a ton more numbers tah ever ptovided by a geen-carded 'three hatter' (+inci logo)...

Should be OPEN IA ALLL COUNRIES....what can your enemies do with the information....be green with envy?

Kemal Ergenekon
Kemal Ergenekon Day 2,140, 17:55

You again? GTFO Hungarian spy.

Archfeldspar
Archfeldspar Day 2,140, 18:08

You UK financial report is a fine start to ending the "sate secrecy" in in the eUSA and elsewhere; if enough citizens demand an accounting one will need to be provided; otherwise , it may be about time to give some new crooks a chance.

 
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