Join the new world

I strongly support this. Not only because the citizens need to know about the major events and alliances in this country (which is my primary concern), but also because we need to recognise the importance of economic ties in Europe. You make a petition, or a referendum, and I'll sign it, and bring the names of my supporters with me.
-Starks Hayter

I'm not against a referendum, if that is what we decide to do then I am in full support of it. I don't understand where all this hate is coming from, I can't force people to read whats on the national forums or to vote on it.

I certainly don't appreciate somehow being painted as "against democracy". The simplest way of agreeing was putting this to our elected officials for them to decide. This is how REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY works, but I think you may have forgotten that while you were slinging mud at me, my party, and this administration.

Committing Irish troops to the defense of a foreign nation is a pretty big move, maybe we should have a referendum for that as well? It would certainly not be democratic, by your definition, to send Irish troops abroad without the consent of the Irish people.

If this bothers you so much Igor, why didn't you say anything while we were discussing the ESA in the first place, or while the vote was taking place, or in the three day period after the vote was passed?

I, reasonably understandably if naively, presumed that a referendum was going to occur. It is standard protocol for such a decision in a democracy.

In terms of deploying peacekeepers to another country, that is not a decision that requires a referendum. Simply it is a one off action that can be dealt with by representatives. Joining the ESA however is a permenant (or at least semi-permenant) decision that radically changes eIreland's geopolitical outlook. Just use RL democracies as a model. Ireland has referendum to join EEC but not to post troops to Chad/Jordan/other UN peacekeeping missions.

By the way apologies for not bringing this up before, I should have raised this in discussion but in my defence I didn't think it would be necessary. I thought we were all democrats* in eIreland.

*note: For Americans out there, I mean Democrats in a follower of Democracy sense as it is used in Ireland rather than American Party Affiliation.

Nice to see you think its rotten seeing as you're a part of it 😉

If there is enough of an outcry for a referendum I will go ahead with it, however Kiemar, I or the Government cannot be blamed for the fact that 13 of our current congress is too lazy to vote on the forums.

@ Theus: If you want I am willing to resign. I did not vote for this government, I voted for Nithraldur. I felt that the IDF would be best served if I could continued my reforms and building of the IDF. Politics should not be part of the military but again, if you have an issue I am willing to resign.

Also I am not blaming you for congress not voting. Quite clearly I am saying that this is something that should be up to the people as a whole and not just up to 11 people.

I never asked for you're resignation nor do I particular want you to leave at your own will as I feel that you are currently the best man to manage the IDF, what I'm saying is that you can't call the government you're part of rotten, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As I said if I see enough of a want for a referendum, I will go ahead with it but for the moment the vote stands in my eyes.

@Theus😒o, just to be clear, you feel that joining the ESA is a decision that can be made by just 11 people?

Also a rotten apple usually has one or two edible parts...

Petition for a referendum here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=cG9vbHBLTEJhMWh5bExkUFBCSmpJWFE6MA..

I feel that the representatives elected on behalf of the people are the people who voted for the ESA and therefore it's valid as any other piece of legislation.

i agree
something is not right when only 11 people voted on this
its time for a NATIONAl referendum on this or if not it would be time to call on the people of ireland to revolt against this government

Igor don't you think you're overreacting a bit?

If some people want a referendum, I see no problem having one.

But I think this is a bit of an overreaction Igor :/

a refewrendum is the way to go

I would be overreacting if a referendum was immediatly called on the issue being made on the forums.

However ISRP officials have not called a referendum and have not said they will do so. Where is their regard for democracy?

so by the looks of it
is there something fishy about the ISRP party?

I do not think there is anything 'fishy' about the ISRP party, I do however think there is certainly a valid democratic deficit in eIreland at the moment.

In a Representative Democracy elected politicians vote on behalf of their electorate however sensitive issues should be decided by a referendum.

Theus: "I feel that the representatives elected on behalf of the people are the people who voted for the ESA and therefore it's valid as any other piece of legislation."

Consider the legitmacy of our last congress election, do you think it was an accurate reflection of the will of the people in eIreland? Also consider the amonth of new citizens that joined us since then.

Finally, all that said, I think this article is just an oppurtunity to scutunize and undermine the legitimacy of the Government. I can see why it has been dubbed an overreaction.

yes but we only have now half the govt that had been elected because a whole politcal party got banned which means there is sumting amiss

There's nothing wrong with the ISRP.

"However ISRP officials have not called a referendum and have not said they will do so. Where is their regard for democracy?"

Theus said if he said if he sees enough of a want for a referendum he would go ahead with it. It's right there Igor, why would we instantly call a referendum just because you want it? Let the people decide if the want a referendum, I doubt you speak for all of them when you pressure us for a referendum.

@ Severin: Most of those Congressmen who were voted in thanks to multi-accounting were banned, contributing to the low turnout for the Congressional vote. So, in one respect, an argument being made saying that the vote wasn't democratic was that Congressmen who were elected undemocratically were not able to vote.

@ Thomas: The ISRP is clean. I resent being grouped together with the Irish Freedom Party for conspiracy theories. The IFP has had quite a few members banned for multis, the ISRP has not experienced that with a single member. We did not choose who the IFP supported in the last Presidential Elections and Snake actually endorsed CloudGT4 and Igor before settling on Theus.

@Severin: You have just attacked the government a lot more harshly than I ever did. also this is not an attempt to undermine the government but an attempt to get them to open their eyes and see that they are not being democratic.

Perhaps I did overreact, especially my opening paragraph. Apologies I get very heated on the subject of democracy between watching Brian "I'll run this country as I see fit" Cowen and studying Nixon whose disregard for democracy ruined him and what could have been a rather promising presidential legacy.

@Sean: If you don't want to be grouped with a group you should reject their nomination. Theus knew, even better than myself, what 5n4keyes was up to. ISRP is not inherently corrupt. A number of your members are among eIreland's best but you need to sort things out in your government. It is in your own interest, your government is promising but needs to act democratically especially considering the tainted election.

I want a response Igor.... 🙁

You can't reject a nomination. The party leaders can choose whoever they want, and the candidate does not have a choice. Sure, you could write a public article ordering the party to drop the nomination, but that isn't very democratic is it?

Whether IFP cheated or not (even though it is confirmed now) is a non issue. The election is over and done with.

Tell me, would things under Nith been different from Theus? In my opinion not at all. The government is not the President. The government is the active people who contribute and help run the country.

Well said Mick, well said.

@ Page: How can you ask people do they want a referendum? A referendum for the necessity of a referendum? The Government should be encouraging people to become aware of issues and Government policy. Put forward a referendum, explain the issue and both sides of the debate and encourage people to vote, what harm would it do?

@ Sean Greene: I did not say the vote wasn't democratic, of course it was, I am saying it was not an adequate reflection of the will the people. How do you account for those who were not able to vote at the time? Or the many who recently joined us? Not to mention those inactive and general political apathy.

What I mean Severin, is if there is huge public outcry for it, which there doesn't seem to be. So far it just seems to be Igor overreacting and basically nit-picking at the current Government.

I am aware that there isn't a public outcry and already mentioned that this article is just an oppurtunity to scutunize and undermine the legitimacy of the Government. I just think the Government should encourage people to vote on sensitive issues not ignore them unless there is a public outcry.

@ Collins: A public announcement that Theus does not accept the IFP nomination since he knows that the party is riddled with multi accounts would have cleared him of any guilt on the issue. However he remained silent as he knew that he needed the support of 5n4keyes' multies to win.

The facts are simple, at least 12 IFP multies votes for Theus and he won by 5 votes. He should at least have publicly denounced 5n4keyes but he didn't.

@ Thomas: So not respecting a nation's democratic right is not picking? Accuse me of overreacting, perhaps I am, but I am not "nit picking". I consider our democracy to be our greatest asset and the most important part of our nation.

@ Severin: Apologies, it looks like you are left defending me even though you don't completely agree with me. In response to what you say to Page, what it would do is get the public involved in the debate and perhaps bring up some issues we overlooked in congress. The real fear is that the public might vote against it.

@ Severin: Scrap that apology 😃

I can scrutinise if I like and I have made clear that I am not undermining the government. Being a minister in the government I actually have a vested interest in it success. I have even talked to Theus directly about this and, I think, he sees where I am coming from.

It's not that terrible a thing to agree with me you know....

I just fundamentally want to see more people involved in politics here in eIreland. I think the people should be informed on sensitive issues and mobilized to vote on them. I completely agree with you if that's your concern Igor 🙂

Oh and I think Government scrutiny is a good thing in a democracy 🙂

And by the way Igor I didn't say you were undermining the Government, least I didn't mean the entire cabinet(I am aware of the paradox of doing such a thing), I said you were undermining its legitimacy(which you are by contesting the presidential election).

I don't totally agree with you for the sake of diplomatic harmony 🙂

Oh well.... if you look at it that way I suppose I am undermining the government 😃

@Thomas, I am a member of the ISRP and was the first to call for a referendum on the forums... The party, like all democratic movements is charged by a level of healthy dissent.

I think Igor may have phrased this a little strongly, but the underlying message is good. A matter of this importance needs to be put before a plebiscite.

oh my. I think this is all going off topic and being way blown out of proportion!!

What is so bad about another referendum, come on people. im new here and a little suprised about the carry on between yourselves top state people but its no biggy. The fact that its been called into issue means a good happy confident government would just do it again. Its not too hard im sure? How about no big decisions can be made without getting a certain percentage of voters to actually vote. Otherwise the people obviously dont care enough about the issue. 11 is not enough but is nobodies fault. We have seen the mistake, now lets fix so it never happens again.
Ed

i am new to eIreland,so may opion may not hold much strength, but a referendum should have been/and should be the way things are done

Theus won by 5 votes, IFP advised all members to vote for Theus. 12 IFP members are banned.....Theus should have lost by 7 votes...

personally i think this is an overreaction. the president is only responsible for one party; ISRP, not the IFP, and i think it is wrong to accuse the whole government of being rotten, looks more like grandstanding to me.

the treaty with the UK is decided by congress, i dont see why the ESA can't be.

having said that considering that some congress members have been banned, there is a good argument that something as important as the ESA should be decided by the new incoming congress, with a position on the ESA as a clear part of the manifesto for each person standing for election.

the other option is as you say, to hold a referendum. of course we shouldnt hold it cos you said so. there should be clear guidelines as to when a referendum should be called.
as in for example whenever:
a military/other kind of alliance is being proposed.
a certain number of members of congress formally request it.
a certain number of ecitizens petition for it.

should it be 10% or 5% of the citizenship, or a stated number like 100? simple majority of congress, or once 1/3 or 40% request it.

anyway, you do good work Igor, but please dont overreact like this, you basically insulted the rest of your governmental colleagues, who at the end of the day had nothing to do with the multi accounting people who were banned. its not like you were being ignored, and you didnt raise this with the rest of the govt, so really you shouldnt be making statements like you just did. turns out most of them have no objection to a referendum, and now you look foolish and youve pissed off your colleagues.

its good to talk...

Gentlemen, please……I'm a bit gobsmacked by all of this.
Here’s some stats as of now:

Only 522 people here in e-Ireland have 35+XP to vote at all.
1218 have between 1-34 XP and no vote.
487 are zombies with 0 XP, no vote, and a slim hope of getting any further on..

As a relatively new citizen, I've not yet voted as I was finding it difficult to differentiate between the various parties. Also, as one of the hordes of recent newbies, I'm mainly focused on staying alive, eating, working, training... the basics that may be long forgotten by experienced members of e-Ireland. Many newish members are in a zombie state, possibly paralysed by a lack of understanding as to how to progress.

I'm all for democracy - but how do any of you expect the large proportion of new, inexperienced e-Irish to be able to contribute when they may not stay alive long enough to reach voting age, and when they do, they find that the top dudes are all slugging it out like a Lisbon-Treaty re-run?

I'm sorry for the rant, and I know I might be sliding off-topic, but here's the news ..... if you want better democratic representation in a fast growing country, reach out to the newbies with practical help, and they'll engage more. Seems simple to me. I have a vote here doing nothing.....

I know I risk a damn good telling off now, but that’s fine. I’m too inexperienced to know any better….

I'm for a referendum

A puppet(ISRP)is as dirty as it puppet master(IFP). Same political alliance which means same party Sean.

I Want a Referendum, its not fair, im new and therefore have no say in this countrys future.and i am having trouble finding a party that shares my political views. i demand a referendum

enoofu how are the ISRP "puppets"?
How does that mean same party?

Igor is using sensationlism for his own means. To all you new citizens, this type of diplomatic action does not require a referendum. It will not directly affect the lives of any Irish citizens apart from the two who will serve on the council of europe.

This was passed democratically in the Dail by a vote of 11-0. There was no opposition from the elected officals. The officals elected by you to represent you're wants. This is how a representative democracy works. I am currently passing a bill for Regional Assemblies to give you all a voice in the Oireachtas.

We cannot continue to be isolationists in this game. It has brought us nothing but bad things. I heavily advise you, if you are strongly opposed to this, to vote for the congress electee who most coressponds with you're ideas to bring towards our attention. For the moment, the vote will stand.

@Theus: That is a bit much, your first sentence but thats how it goes I suppose. The rest of your first paragraph sums up my issue with your government.

@Grainne: Interesting argument. The only actual argument made against the referendum I might add that actually makes any sense.

After Lisbon in Ireland I share your worries, I actively campaigned in favour of the Treaty and was rather gobsmacked by the results but that is a different issue, however we do have a Minister of Information in this Government who should inform citizens so they make an informed decision. Again drawing parallels to Lisbon, the Govt. made little effort on the issue and did not provide enough information. For God's sake FG, the opposition, put 3 times as much money into pushing a Yes vote and providing information than the much better funded Fianna Fáil. Anyway I know I am veering off topic so I will cut myself short and say that the issue is informing the people. If they know what they are voting for they will vote the right way. That is why I am willing to bet a large amount of money on Lisbon 2 passing....

Oh and Gráinne on rereading your final paragraphs vis-a-vis reaching out to new citizens... we need you in Government, a bit of common sense would do us all some good 😃

all you do all day is squabble for the scraps at longshanks table...we should arm ourselfs and march on the morrow!!

the long march of liamo begins ,,,,!!!

the ISRP is Clean But We Dont have enough active Congress members to Oppose Things such as Joining This new Alliance, I Support the Decision All the way But I Believe That We should Get Our Political System in Order, So that Everyone is represented... Quit Starting up Conspiracy theories :/ If you dont ill start up some of my Own 🙂 Hmm Mrs. Thatcher is Secretly Running the eUK To Keep a Tight Grip on The North? xD

we need to get this mudslinging out of eire :/

I agree the people need more represenatation. Thats something that will happen if thomas page's regional assembly bill would go through congress.