Join the new world

Voted! I will try to summarize my past ideas with any new ones and bring them here. Thanks!

Voted. I liked this, keep up the good work.

Here are three of economic proposes i was studying for my plataform in next presidential election:

1- Work in a way to make THB worth more.
1.1- Creation of Thailand Central Bank that will be responsible for the control of THB value.

2- Make changes in goverment companies administration.
2.1- Close Housing goverment company and sell it to upgrade goverment food company.
2.2- Thailand have lot of houses companies, current goverment house company is almost abandoned.
2.3- I will try to bring goverment food company back to life.
2.3.1- If succesful with the money of the house company I maybe will create a goverment Grain company or upgrade goverment food.
2.4- Make a congress voting and debate about goverment companies wages table.

4- Propose the creation of an investment bank, with public Loan contract to companies that fit some rules.
4.1- Rules such as: saying what the money is needed to, sign public contract, pay Interest, have specific number of workers.

Im going to deconstruct Antonio's plans first, then put forth my own.

@1 How? I love these vague, soundbite type answers you always give. Are you finally on board with my idea to continue manipulating the gold prices or is there another grand scheme you're waiting to spring on us come next election?

@1.1 This is what the Iron Bank was virtually doing in my administration. So now you are on board with manipulating the currency market...right? Right?

@2.1/2.2 Govt housing exists strictly to provide cheap housing for the Housing Lottery. I couldnt say if it has any workers as I havent checked since I left office, but it also is a safeguard for citizens to get an entry level house at a very affordable price for them.

@2.3 How? Are you going to engage in a wage war? Use a large chunk of treasury to fund these higher wages? Again, vague and its a soundbite answer.

@2.3.1 Successful? You mean like the other Housing companies for sale on the markets? What makes you think you'll find a buyer for it in our current economic climate? Have you looked lately at how many Thai companies are for sale?

@2.4 So if you're going to have Congress debate a govt company wage table...and what if congress votes to keep wages low? How then will you attract workers?

@4 We looked into this, and I was strongly for it at first. But then watching some of the other GMs in Thailand I came to the conclusion that most dont understand how to be successful and make a profit. So we'd be spending govt money on these deadend companies and see no return when they go belly up.

Its a gamble...and personally I now feel we have to ride this out. Some of these companies need to die off. That's reality. Once we have these companies out of business...workers will then re-enter the workpool and seek out companies that actually have GMs that know how to survive and pay a decent wage.

This is more geared towards the banking idea Antonio had. It's a good way to make a decent amount of gold, but like we've seen in the real world, it has inherent risks. So far I've made more gold than I've lost with banking. I've found that a generic loan application really helps streamline the process and helps weed out the bad high risk applicants, from the good applicants. If you made an ORG newspaper, you could simply post the application up, and cut down on the bureaucratic mess.

If you decide to do international banking, than it could help fill our coffers for government programs, if you do local banking it would promote business growth. Although we'd still lack the workers.

Increasing workforce in my opinion would alleviate a few problems our economy is having, specifically wages and production. If at some point we suddenly do have a sudden or steady influx of new citizens, we should also be prepared to stabilize the monetary market using the Iron Bank. I don't know if any of you play the market, but Slovakia is currently fighting huge inflation. This is more of a foresight than a current problem obviously, but still something to think about.

As an afterthought, promoting the current wage wars, and comparing the strength of the THB against the USD would be a decent recruitment tool. I'm not sure if your doing that or not Antonio, if you are, huzzah, if your not than it's something to think about.

this is not presidencial debate yet, and i am working on it( so thank you for the questions). i will reply it just to make my point and maybe help here.

1. and 1.1 - yes, can i do it plz? 😁

2.1 and 2.2 - there arent workers in this companies, to provide houses for the gvt i will open a licitation with vote of the congress t ochoose the company that will provide us the houses.

2.3 - goverment companies in rockman goverment were for "training", this mean low skill workers. I dont want the goverment to enter in a wage war( as i say in 2.4 congress will vote the wages table for each skill).

2.4 - maybe gift programs( and also food).

4 - I agree with you, because of that we need some rules and also need a "team" to choose wich companies deserve gvt investment, since we dont want to burn public money.

thanks for the idea Tyson, ans also thank you for the help with moving tickets, if you want to chat with us try to participate more in our topic in eThai forum.

#1 Is awesome idea, but in my opinion first we need people to work in this companies, but i agree with you in this matter, it is a way for the country to earn lot of gold, and maybe in a future9 if need) supply the military cutting expenses.

#2 I am doing this with the company, and this is also the "central bank idea"

I also put other day some thb in the market at 0.006 price( isnt very much, i know) but look like monetary market is following( i cant see more 0.005 offers.

#3 I think that goverment companies arent there to compete against others, but to supply the population without thinking in the profit only, als ooffering wages and prices in a "realistic" level.

#4 agree

#5 people from outside put their prices here based in gold value compared to thb, this is what people that export usually do 😁

And the average citizen couldnt afford a q3 weapon selling for .8 gold in Thailand could they? Which is why I said Import Tax means nothing, as we still wont see a foreign product on our markets the average citizen could afford.

Damnit...now Im really going to bed!

good night Jack 😁

and yes, i know what you mean and i agree, first thb have to worth more, then import taxes get lower, also because if we open importings now it will work against our plan to make thb worth more, since the guy will take eThai gold and put the money in market, no?

2 - listed in the others points

2.1 - goverment also dont need a house company, can easily create a licitation process for the housing lotto( with public and congress vote.

2.3 - goverment companies in rockman goverment were for "training", this mean low skill workers. I dont want the goverment to enter in a wage war( as i say in 2.4 congress will vote the wages table for each skill).

2.4 - is something we can work on, i want the goverment companies to be, how already say, the place where you can easily find a job. Of course i dont want the gvt company operating in a loss, but the mind wont be "profit". My plan is to put fair wages, and give goverment plans, such as gifting for the public workers.

-sorry, but i am in a hurry, feel free to write, i will be back in some hours.

>if we open importings now it will work against our plan
>to make thb worth more, since the guy will take eThai
>gold and put the money in market, no?

Well, yes, they would, but that'd only be if they came here and sold stuff... which they wouldn't. Right now the baht is worth so little that very few sales of foreign goods occur. The reason the tariffs are a concern for another day is because they're simply not important right now. If we want to see any imports coming in, we need to strengthen the baht against Gold first. Only when we've done that will tariffs be a concern, or what impact importers selling baht for Gold will have on the exchange rate.

And now I'm off for the night too.

Alright I apologize for the lack of deconstruction, but anything I had to say about that was said earlier. No one has yet put any solid ideas on the table so here I go. Oh, and Antonio, you missed number three. Surprised no one noticed. Kidding btw. Fun fact: The Leisure Suit Larry series is numbered 1,2,4,5,6 because the main programmer swore he would never do a LSL 3.

1. Immediate increase of the weapons and iron income taxes to at least 50%. I would say 75% would be enough. This would allow food companies to compete with the wages they can offer.

2. Double the citizen fee. It is currently far less then a days wages even at skill 3 or 4. This would attract new citizens and would easily be paid for by the increase in taxes.

3. Offer incentives for workers to work in the food industry. These would include but not be limited to:

3.1. Increased chance of receiving a house from the housing lottery. Naturally this would only apply to homeless but an offer of two shots at a house as opposed to one would be some incentive.

3.2. Preferential treatment when it comes to gifting. They would be equal to soldiers when it comes to receiving gifts from the government.

3.3. End of month bonus for working for a month in the food industry. This could be anything from a chunk of THB to half a gold to some free Q3-Q5 food or maybe some decent weapons.

4. Interest free loans to grain companies so they can upgrade Quality. Workers at grain companies could also receive similar benefits as listed for food workers.

5. Possible increase of income tax to other sectors of land and manufacturing, starting with oil, moving tickets, and hospitals. The last was only included because I needed a third category to allow me to use commas and the "and" and allow it to be grammatically correct.

Theres my 5 point plan. Have at it.

Yes, there is no mention of decreasing the value of the baht. By taking currency out of circulation with the taxes, we decrease its value.

beorn number 3 is not related to economics, as i said this numbers are related to my presidencial plataform that i am already creating, but here is No 3 if you want.

3- Always defend eThai interess, and work in a way to make it stronger in the international politics.
3.1- Sign a new MPP with indonesia or a non-agression pact.
3.2- Make significant changes in military organization( with the help of defense sec.)
3.2.1- Put congressman in a separate platoon is one of the ideas.


I hope to show this plataform again in some days, more mature, now i just care in helping KK with his goverment.

one thing that help also is this:

i have one moving company with 2 workers with high skill in manufacture, i´ve just sent a PM to the other GMs of OCT holdings, so they send me their 2 lowest skill workers( from one of their companies) and i send them my high skill workers to help in gifts or food.

why? 2 workers in moving tickets for me is enough, each produce 1 MT per day( or 1,5 some) i think that bringing a lower skill workers will keep the production in my company at the same level, but will help in other one.

>2.4 - is something we can work on, i want the goverment companies >to be, how already say, the place where you can easily find a >job. Of course i dont want the gvt company operating in a loss, >but the mind wont be "profit". My plan is to put fair wages, and >give goverment plans, such as gifting for the public workers.

You want the government companies to be the places people can easily get jobs? We have 103 job offers on the human resource page. I don't think it's difficult for people to get jobs at all...

>2. Double the citizen fee. It is currently far less then a days >wages even at skill 3 or 4. This would attract new citizens and >would easily be paid for by the increase in taxes.

The problem with this is that the citizen fee is only paid to new citizens, not people moving. People don't try to find out stuff like that when they join, they either join their own country, or a country they feel some loyalty to.

I'll work on what I feel are solutions to the problem soon, but the gist of it is that before we attack the production side of supply/demand, we have to sort out the labour supply/demand. After having done that, I believe many of the production problems will begin to sort themselves out...

The problem with this is that the citizen fee is only paid to new citizens, not people moving. People don't try to find out stuff like that when they join, they either join their own country, or a country they feel some loyalty to.

agreeg

callum, i mean, because some companies here are hiring, but thinking about profit, when they reach more then them workers( in some sector) they fire the lower skill worker( not complaining) in goverment companies, since you are active, you will be working.

@beorn

We shouldnt want to devalue the baht, that's what has us in the current problem right now. We need to strengthen it to encourage foreign business that its profitable to export to Thailand and maintain prices our average citizens can afford.

By continuing to strengthen the baht, you will see our wage war shrink as our currency begins to equal in value to the stronger foreign markets. Weapons company such as my own will be unable to offer wages at current rates because it will begin to translate to wages such as .5 and higher gold per day.

Its very simple economics, the difficulty is maintaining the long term program of manipulating our currency markets. Its not something we can do in a one month term...but over several months.

@Callum and Antonio: It was a measure that might have some slight effect on the labor side of the equation. I don't expect it to have much effect, maybe 3 or 4 new citizens during the month. However you must also realize that food is expensive and new citizens will need to be able to afford it until they are skilled enough to get well paying job. Besides, there isn't that much use for Baht, and if we increase taxes on weapons and iron, it should be more then cover it.

Don't forget that we have been working on increasing the labor for two months now. Its a long term goal that is admirable but doesn't work when a citizen will work for weapons over food because thats whats paying. If there was some way to encourage people to move here permanently and in large numbers, I would love to get behind it. So far however it seems that we only get a slow trickle of new workers and they work for the highest pay they can get, which tends to be weapons and iron, not food.

@Jack: Sorry. By decrease, I meant the ratio, not the bahts actual value. Since that is currently being implemented (I think), I didn't list that as a new measure I would like to see taken. However, it all comes down to taking baht out of circulation, and with the taxes and currency manipulation that should happen after about a month or so. I do feel there is some use in having an extremely weak baht, but not at the expense of extremely expensive food.

First, Antonio, thanks for being first in posting a plan. It is always tough being first. I have heard alot that I agree with and a direction that I would purpose as well.

1). Manipulating the markets to increase the value of our baht is important. This means that the central bank has to gain access to gold to do so. I also agree that this prospect will take months. This means we should select someone that knows what they are doing and is willing to keep at it for a couple of months.

2). I differ with beorn on increasing taxes in weapons to strengthen food and whatnot. When we look at countries that are the same size or in a similar situation as us, they typically only have access to the "grain resource." I purpose we enter into a trade agreement with another country, eg. Netherlands, and offer resources/goods they do not have access too.
2a). This means we should support the companies that actually are bringing foreign gold onto our markets. When we sell this gold for baht, those smaller countries that are selling us grain/food will be able exchange baht for gold for their country.
2b). Our tax structure should reflect this exchange. Meaning we will drop the appropriate import taxes to 1% to aid those countries that agree in this exchange.
3). Government companies for the sake of training hold very little purpose. If we keep them it is to manipulate the market and to generate gold for the purpose of buying excess baht from the market
3a). Selling government companies, unless we really need gold, is determental to our current economy. We don't need more companies
3b). If we are using government companies then the purpose of them should be to break the wage war, or to speed it up, so we can start to normalize our economy. There are too many poorly run businesses.

This all for the momment.

My proposals were intended to allow speedy reestablishment of our food and grain industries for self sufficiency. Weapon industries will still be able to turn a profit while not forcing everyone to work for them. At the end of the road I see two outcomes. Outcome 1: Everyone is working at weapon and iron industries with some working for housing. Outcome 2: Through government control, we lose some of our national income in the weapon industries in exchange for not needing to import food. I am willing to go either way but I think it would be good to decide now.

I do not think your proposal was wrong beorn. I think one promotes more isolation than the other. I am not sure isolation is what we need at the momment.

So Thailand is hardly a liberal and let the market sort itself economy is it ?

You are all talking of medlign in the economy and arbitrarily strenghtening the baht...

2 thoughts are that 1) such arbitrary exercises in strenghtening a curreny hardly ever work 2) if you price out the weapons industry by raising the income tax level of its workers to 50% or 75% you are merely going to drive those industries out of the country or have those wrkers pull out because they don't fancy working to fund the government only.

I must admit that I am somewhat surprised by the internal discussions in eThailand compared to the message put out internationally... Slap 75% income tax on workers in Thailand working in the industries that have figured out a way of being profitable and those workers will be right back out of the country.

If you try to draw workers into the country with a message of strong liberal market practices, you run the risk of flushing them out if the reality is one of government meddling and manipulation to favour this or that industry.

Surely its not impossible to create food profitably... and if not for a social purpose, then isn't the right solution for the government to subsidise the food companies that make a real effort to fill the social niche of providing low grade food at low cost ?

They could help with the cost of buying grain or remove any income tax, VAT or profit tax from the actors in the food industry.

A balancing act would be required, but to punish the one industry working in this country in order to make agriculture and food production more viable seems like shooting the country in the foot...

Regards,

Tas

nice exposing tas.

As a weapons company owner, I do not want taxes raised in my sector any more than the next GM...but govt involvement in the currency market and strengthening the baht is necessary if Thailand ever hopes to have a flourishing domestic market free of foreign companies poaching our cheap product...given the exchange rates.

Its easy for me to sit back and watch these discussions amount to nothing, Im still making a rather large profit...but again...strengthening the baht while hurting my exporting business greatly is a step that must be taken if Thailand wants to have any sort of viable future in the domestic market is affordable and accessible to all Thai citizens.

Id much rather see the govt involved in the currency market, than selecting my sector that is doing great business and punishing it because we can actually retain workers...and they ignore that I gift all my employees as that may be further incentive for my employees to stay.

I agree that we need to control the currency. If we could somehow give a negative tax to food instead of a positive tax to weapons I would be all for it. Unfortunately, the more we support food, the worse off the currency will get since we will be putting more paper into circulation. As the currency continues to plummet with subsidization, weapons companies will continue to be able to increase their wages. Subsidization will continue the wage war while increasing inflation massively.

Regarding gifts, they don't seem to matter. Other GM's give 10 gifts a day to their employees and they leave at the drop of the hat.

I see this as a fairly immediate problem. Within a month, eThailand is going to either need constant imports of food to feed the masses or will be self sufficient. I am willing to go either way. People seem to dislike leveling the playing field in favor of Food so I guess I shall start figuring out how to make Glocks.

@Tas: Sorry to respond to yours last, but how could we possibly subsidize food companies without increasing taxes? You realize that we need 40+ THB a day per worker to compete with weapons and iron companies. If we have 20 employees that comes to 800 THB a day that the government is just giving away. A month of that is 24000 THB. The current estimated budget calls for a small tax increase to pretty much 5% across the board to maintain treasury levels with 15000 THB budget. We would have to at least double taxes to maintain the level of the treasury with the additional costs of subsidization. Why is it that every time someone shoots down my ideas they don't bother to do the math? I don't mean the news regulars like Ealb, Jack, Guy, and others, but the people who just seem to pop up, go "OMG that seems prices are high," or "Gee willickers rather then increase taxes lets just subsidize companies without raising taxes." Please can we get some figures used.

@Korbin: Its hard to determine how the housing lotto is going. On the one hand it is very popular and does seem to bring in decent amounts of THB. However, I don't think it is enough to compete in the wage wars for workers. I'll do some math and get back to you on it.

@Tas:
>So Thailand is hardly a liberal and let the market sort
>itself economy is it ?
>
>You are all talking of medlign in the economy and
>arbitrarily strenghtening the baht...

We have our reasons, and I hardly think they're arbitrary. Our economy is suffering from rampant, out-of-control inflation. That's coming from being essentially left to "sort itself out". We're heading for a crash; it's not sustainable. As much as you may argue that free markets will make a popular banner to attract immigrants with... an out-of-control, unsustainable economy with prices climbing higher and higher isn't exactly going to do wonders to attract them, even if we can state that it got that way without government intervention.

>They could help with the cost of buying grain or remove any
>income tax, VAT or profit tax from the actors in the food
>industry.

The taxes in these sectors is currently 5% for Food, and 1% for Grain. Losing another 4% off of the Foo tax isn't going to make any noticeable difference.

Though as an aside... hmm. Weapons are the only sector of finished goods with taxes less than 5%... yet they're also the sector that can without question sustain the highest taxes. Hmm... this should be changed.

@Tas: You are looking at current offers and unfortunately don't know about past problems. eThailand has had tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of THB stolen from the government coffers over the past 6 months. Especially in beta when money could simply be taken without a vote, but also afterwards with Rockman and TNT. To the best of our knowledge, there is up to 1 millon THB floating around in the hands of a few players, with a likely figure of somewhere around 300k. Even if its a mere 100k, which is likely what Admiral Ackbar is holding on to, it can be used to continue this incredibly destructive wage spiral. In fact, to some degree I think that may be what is happening. Unfortunately I think we must assume there is at least 200k floating around in the hands of people whose values are questionable when it comes to eThailand. So yeah, your more right then you think that strengthening the baht beyond a point isn't a smart thing to do. At least by buying Baht with gold.

@Tas:
You're absolutely right. When I originally encountered the idea to try to fix the baht by buying up everything below a certain value, my first thought was to wonder why we should actually then sell it again. And you've done a fine job of spelling out the reason behind the nagging suspicions that it sounded too simple. As long as the government simply hoards the baht it buys, the plan is risk-free... but requires a constant influx of Gold. I presume the desire to resell comes from a desire to make the endeavor self-sustaining... which alas, it really can't be unless we look at the obscenely long term. We're trying to remove currency from circulation, so it almost has to function as a sink.

(I suppose one lesson to take from this thread is that any involved analysis of semi-complex new ideas should not be done in the middle of the night under the spell of insomnia. 😉

@Beorn080,

I am looking at the only market that is worth looking at. The current one.

Markets have no memory. Only the agents operating in them do. And usually that is their downfall.

The past never guarantees the future when talking about markets. So what was, before eThailand was robbed, as it was, is now irrelevant if you want to take a fresh and constructive approach to solving the country's problems.

Tas

@Tas: The money is still out there though. We would be fools if we didn't calculate the fact that at any minute another 20k, 30k, or even 100k THB could be dumped on the market and drown the market. I take martial arts. First thing you learn in self defense is be aware of EVERY possible threat. Its when you forget about the guy who hasn't done anything for a few minutes that he whacks you from behind.

You do realize that I was agreeing with you.

@Tas: Thanks for joining in the conversation, more information and perspectives are needed.

I would say that when people are talking about a stronger baht, it is really about getting the baht out there. More people in Thailand will of course cause more baht to be dispersed which will make it stronger. Now, unless we get a sudden influx of active players, this will take a long time and we might suffer a crash.

The only other option of burning that extra baht out there is to store it in governmental coffers or a govermental run Org. We can get that baht through taxes, which I do not like, as I would like to take as little from the eThai citzen. The other is through some kind of central bank.

With that said, I agree with you Tas, if any kind of government controlled bank tries to control the market it will fail. I would say though that Jack's use of the Iron Bank and the market was a success. He was active in buying and selling baht not through posting offers, but in making purchases based on what was offered.

When things got to crazy, he posted an article and stopped his activity. Things died down to an acceptable level and he was able to resume trade. I felt this system was successful in that money was able to move around. People with baht, citizens and investors, knew they could convert it to gold and vice versa.

@Korbin: I am intrigued by the idea of owning stock in ones country. That would be very interesting. I imagine we are looking at more or less government issued bonds?

this double inventory now maybe can help in a lot of things 😁

Yes, GMs using established merchant traders, or their own, to pay people in high quality foods/gifts instead of just funds.

"So Thailand is hardly a liberal and let the market sort itself economy is it ?
You are all talking of medlign in the economy and arbitrarily strenghtening the baht..."

Tas, be careful not to be labelled a "neo-liberal". I said precisely the same things as you when I joined eThailand and that brought disastrous consequences. Read the Market section in the forum for the evidence.

Anyway, for what it is worth, I totally agree with your views.

Niceboy. I am not sure what that comment added to this whole discussion. While you are free to make it, I am asking for those to add to the discussion and how they wish to shape government intervention, or lack there of. The only comment I have seen you make regarding this topic is that import taxes need to be lowered. With really no proposal on how you would motivate other countries to invest here.

I would also offer that if one read the comments, you would see that several people have proposed the same thing.

I think you have some interesting things to say, I just want meat with my dinner and not the crackers and water you have been providing.

i think that this atrition is unnecessary for the country.

i like and respect Jack and Niceboy, but plz, solve it in PM or bed, this isnt constructive for the country.

Guy, I was giving some advice (and support) to Tas and I chose to do so publicly. I hope that you do not want to censor me for doing so.

Whenever I want to put forward new ideas, I will do so. Please allow me to choose when to do it.

I do thank you though for being polite and civil. Not everyone is like that.

This will be my last comment on this topic, any other replies and I will take it to PM afterwords. Niceboy, that statement was pretty latent with passive aggressiveness with is just as destructive of the aggressiveness you are preaching. In some ways worse.

You stated "..I hope that you don want to censor me for doing so."

This ignores my statement which says "While you are free to make it..." I invited that comment and acknowledge your right to say what you said. Your statement implies that I did not and represents my actions in a false light.

You also say, "Whenever I want to put forward new ideas, I will do so. Please allow me to choose when to do it." This statement implies that I am harping and railing at you for not bringing fourth your ideas.

Instead my statement, "...you have some interesting things to say, I just want meat with my dinner and not the crackers and water you have been providing." Is an invitation and not a demand. You can feed me steak or crackers, I left that choice up to you.

Passive aggressiveness clouds discourse just as much as aggressiveness.

In the end here, I agree with Antonio, this discussion really belongs in PM as it does nothing to furhter the discussion.

I apologize for the typos in above. I am watching TV, enjoying my Friday and typing long posts at the same time.

@Guy - The concept of bonds is above my head unfortunately. I will have to Wikipedia how they work. 🙂

Whenever we discuss tackling the currency issue I tend to hold back and not speak all that is on my mind. This is mainly due to the fact that there are still so many criminals out there holding those bags of baht waiting for that big payday.

...great, now I want steak. Thanks a lot Guy.

Yes. I want steak too, sadly my wife wants Jimmy John's. I also know little of bonds, I only know enough to get myself in trouble.

I wish I could get Danny Ocean in here and help us get back that illgotten baht. It is going to be a plague on our economy even if we get to the point of getting alot of workers.

Shame we can't for a large gold fee, completely reprint the currency. Real governments do it, why can't we. YAY FOR LACK OF SLEEP!

@beorn - I think the lack of sleep may be helping you since I have also considered how great it would be to have the option to create a new currency. Then again, maybe lack of sleep just brings you down to my level of thinking. 🙂

Then honest folk could trade in their old bills. Reminds me of one of my favorite MASH episodes.