If eRepublik Is A Wargame, It's A Crappy One
SledDog
In his article "eRepublik A Wargame?" (http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/erebublik-a-war-game-read-comment-section--879760/1/20) Rolo Tahmassee criticized Jacobi for his statement that he doesn't play eRepublik as a wargame. Rolo's point is that you pretty much have to.
I probably come at this from a different perspective than most of you, and indeed most people playing eRepublik. I've been playing wargames longer than most of you have been alive. Literally. I got my first wargame when I was in the ninth grade. That would be 1970 or 1971. It was a board game of course (it was 1914 from Avalon-Hill in case you're interested) because no one had computers. Computers were for companies and took over rooms the size of my house. A few of us had thoughts: one of my friends wanted to build a computer - he's the VP of R&D at Pixar now btw - but we didn't have the slightest idea of how to go about it. I didn't see my first home computer - the original Apple II - until years later.
Anyway, based on my nearly 40 years of experience in wargaming, I have reached the conclusion that eRepublik is a wargame. Or maybe I should say that it has BECOME a wargame because I think that the designers really didn't expect war to be as big a component of the game as it quite clearly has become. Why do I think that? Because as a wargame it is pretty crappy (and you know the word I'm not using here). Why do I say that it's a crappy wargame? well there are several reasons:
1. There are no costs to war. As far as I can tell there's no cost to starting a war. Oh sure, individuals and governments have to bear the cost of weapons and defensive systems but declaring a war on a country not only has financial costs but also costs in terms of trade and international goodwill. That's not here/
2. Logistics. Where are they? France invades Canada and is able to bring massive forces to bear, heavily armed and out for bear as the saying goes. It works in terms of this game but how do you move those massive forces across the Atlantic deliver them onto our shores and keep bringing them beans and bullets? And I'm not even talking about the physical dangers of bringing those ships and airplanes across the Atlantic against a defended coast with aircraft and warships to oppose them. Supply lines and logistics can be a real b*tch in real life. When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait he stopped with Kuwait in part because he believed that the world wouldn't react to that take over but also in part because his ability to supply his army was such that going into Kuwait was about as about as far as his army could go, because going any further would have stretched his ability to supply his army beyond the breaking point, and once he established his forward supply bases in Kuwait, well it was too late. In the European Theater of Operations in World War II the invasion with the longest distance was North Africa which was launched from England but even then there was an advanced base in Gibraltar.
3. Geography is another problem with the game. I wouldn't want to try to invade British Columbia from Alberta because of the geography. I wouldn't want to try to do that anymore than I'd want invade Quebec from Nunavut. Or indeed invade Ontario from Manitoba (anyone who has driven from Toronto to Winnipeg as I have understands what I'm talking about). I once ripped to shreds a stupid alternate history from a guy who thought that the Germans could have own World War II by landing an army in Baffin Island then crossing the Baffin Strait to far northern Quebec and marching south until they were within V2 range of the major cities of North America. The guy thought that the fact that there were no roads and nearly impenetrable forests that have to be cut before you can build roads - not to mention a hostile and mobile population that makes their living in those very forests by shooting at things and not being seen while they do it. Geography counts.
4. The power of the defender. The standard belief is that in war, the offense should be to the defense as three is to one. In other words you need the strength of the attacking force should be three times as great as the strength of the defending force. This may need to be more or less depending on a number of factors including geography, equipment and morale. A small force can - and has - done extremely well in mountainous terrain against a force that exceeded the 3-1 ratio, and well equipped forces can routinely defeat poorly equipped forces. As for morale, well let's just say that an army that has undergone the sort of defeats that eCanada has suffered would be doing very badly in the later battles of the war.
5. The lack of other arms. I suppose that this needs to be addressed. As I've mentioned the logistic concerns of a trans-Atlantic invasion are "daunting" even without considering a defensive force waiting for them on the other side. Now let's consider that defending force. Imagine if you will trying to launch an attack from France with Canada and the United States in possession of a sizable navy and air force and then delivering their cargo of soldiers against prepared positions. Hitler wasn't about to try it across as puny a body of water as the narrowest part of the English Channel. He had good reason too; every post war simulation (I'm talking professionally run war games including several run at Sandhurst) showed that his army would have been cut to shreds. Canadians are all to well aware of "difficulties" of mounting an attack against a defended position - Dieppe. Americans know it as well: Anzio and Omaha Beach.
6. The bizarre alliance structure. As I'm given to understand it, eCanada can fight eRussia in Alaska and eRussia's allies can't get involved, even if all of those allies are curently at war with eCanada. However if eCanada were to launch an attack into Far Eastern Russia which "borders" Alaska (though launching an invasion across the Bering Sea is another prospect I wouldn't relish in real life) It would trigger Russia's Mutual Protection Pacts which would cause Canada to face Russia's allies, all of whom eCanada is already at war with.
I could go on and on (and on and on) about how eRepublic is a badly designed wargame, which explains why I don't believe that it was intentionally designed to be a wargame. I think that it was INTENDED to be a game that simulated trade and international relations on the world stage, as well as business and politics on the national stage, and personal advancement on all stages. The problem is that while this was the intention, the part of the game that deals with war is underdeveloped. War is easy and relatively painless, which makes it an attractive option. War needs to hurt both the attacker and the defender. As Robert E. Lee put it, "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it."
Comments
I disagree with the 1th point
I disagree with the term "1th".
1) As far as I know every battle costs an amount of gold depending on the number of people in the territory + hospital + defense system. but I may be wrong, never started one 😛
That's right, battles cost a nominal amount of Gold to start. It might seem a lot for a single person, but it's generally pocket change for a country. And considering the thousands of Gold that get spent on "tanking" every battle anyway, the cost of opening those battles falls into the "doesn't even really matter" range.
In any case, I agree with this article completely. No, it's not because I'm eCanadian and in very bad shape in this war. It's because I've always thought so - if it were the other way around, and Canada were romping around in Russia and France, etc. I'd still feel this way. Invasions across an ocean are incredibly tough, and some of the "connections" are kind of weird in my opinion. Kyushu -> Hawaii is one that's always puzzled me.
In any case, I'm not suggesting that this game becomes an online Hearts Of Iron, where it's all about war - it's "all about war" enough as it is. I'm totally for war "hurting the attacker and the defender," and probably for it hurting the attacker worse more often than not.
I voted the hell out of this article.
Great analysis. It corresponds largely to my view on the game. I really think that your first point is the one that needs to be address soon or the game will crumble upon itself.
As the game stand right now, every active tanks will just keep better for ever. There is absolutely no limits or dangers associated with fighting constantly. So the tanks keep getting "tankier" and the same countries stay on top. Crushing any possibility of success for eCanada.
Another major issue is that every win comes down to gold (more gold = win). So the game is ridiculously simple from a strategy perspective. The only thing that matter for a country is to make the most gold possible. Everything else (political stability, army size, etc.) will be improve if you can make tons of gold. Again, this reinforce the advantage of older nation (who already have more tanks) and of cheaters (who produce gold faster).
While I would agree its a poor war game as it was not developed as such but it is or has become one. I have been playing war games for about 40 years myself and like it or not war is a larger part of this game.
Fifty percent of what most people do each day is train for war, train their strength. Of the products produced by companies the majority are in fact used for war, gifts, moving tickets and weapons. All raw materials are linked to war or to produce things used in war and what use are defense systems or hospitals with out war.
Regardless if it was by design or not war is a large part of this game. How many times have I heard we need a war to stimulate the economy, with out war the world economy would be in ruins. When the admins stopped all wars for a period there was no use for many products and companies went into or hovered over bankruptcy.
Either this is a war game or it must be played as one to survive, if nothing else that must be learned from our enemies.
Although your first point is incorrect (it does cost an amount of gold relative to the population of the region + a base quantity), the war module of this game definitely needs improvements. The Erepublik team is already working on it, but likely months and months away.
I'd still like to see some of the things you mentioned, like geography, morale, etc incorporated. Things like supply lines should be factored in (like cutting off regions from one another) would make the war module far more robust. However, even without these changes the military aspects of this game are still the most interesting 😛
I think the 1914 reference dates you (us). I got 1914 in 1971 in the summer between 7th and 8th grade (Clayton's Toy Store, which was in downtown Buffalo back then).
I agree with what you've said. It's the economic and political aspects of this game that interest me, but those get thrown out with the military aspect. On July 15 and July 25 we had to ignore party and policy and do what was necessary to resist foreign takeover. The military aspect is absurd, leading to strange results. I think it's meant to handle border incursions between neighbors, but not these bizarre intercontinental campaigns, and there is no geography, granularity, or tactics here.
The work-train-fight thing is also weird. If players had to work *or* train *or* fight each day, players would have to choose a career path and countries would have to decide how much real priority to assign to the military. There's no battle fatigue, there's no aging, there's no combat casualties.
i honestly think its absurd that somebody can fight in a battle in manitoba from their hospital in paris, that somebody can fight in a battle in california from their hospital in ontario etc.
THAT more then anything makes war too easy. if all the fighters in the war actually had to move into the border region they are attacking from or move too the region they are defending i think that war would take on a slightly new dimension.
also the game would be slightly less ridiculous
i'm all for war but lets give it a little more strategy then what we have now! 🙂
Yeah. Erepublik is crappy. So lets leave this crappy game.
I agree fully with this article. The only way to make the game more strategy oriented is to make it more like Hearts of Iron (First one, not the second no matter what you think or what 'improvements' they made). While that would make the game more realistic, I believe it would include a level of sophistication that most casual ePlayers would cringe at, as I know some HoI players comment about.
Also, I agree that the conections between countries, as stated above, should be improved to a more realistic format. It does not have to be extremely exact as to terrain or distance, but a more Risk like style would be welcome.
I completely agree with this article.
Yes, there are costs to war, but they're completely financial. There's no logistics, no concerns about loss of player, the alliance system is needlessly complex, for how this module is, it's what a 10 year old would have designed while as far as I'm concerned the economic system (why I originally played) is very sophisticated.
Anyways. Put this man on the erep design team. Then I shall be happy.
i strongly agree with point 4
Voted, you hit the nail on the head, it is only a matter of time that E Republik address this issue or someone else out there will fill the void and design something a little more Sophisticated with a built in user base.
I like this game, but the war aspect gets old very fast, business is war as well, and building something from nothing is more rewarding than destroying Infrastructure. We need more Realism in this game where Penalties including death of your citizen Occur in military confrontations, or if you choose the mercenary path as a career, this is a very real consequence,
This game is close to Risk except there is no cost in taking countries, like leaving a piece behind.
If a countries strength is diminished for every region they take, then we might see a more realistic outcome. Right now the war aspect is totally unrealistic.
Voted.
America&Canada- we have guns for you- 20*q2-for6g. Pm me.Fight smart!
We whish you good luck!
Voted-good point
lol im surprised the admins havent banned you yet
The concept of supply lines - the most crucial aspect of maintaining military initiative - is non existant in eRep.
Armies need supplies. In this regard, I agree.
More work has to be done to enhance military logistics.
Hey, Dawg.
You sound like an Avalon Hill 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' veteran to me. Hail!
And I agree with the present overemphasis on war. That being said, the fellas who put eRepublik together seem to still be developing it. So far, they've done excellent work, I say.
More will have to be done re. military rationality (e.g., being in the neighbourhood when fighting, say) and economic development, but I like eRepublik. 🙂
Chow!
MZ
Why would they ban him? The truth is the truth, look at it as more of a suggestion to improve future versions of the game
voted
I believe one of the main reasons the war module is as crappy as it is, is simply because the admins must not have thought it would be as important as it has become or they just didn't care (the latter sounds sadly plausible).
I strongly agree with this article, the War Module is broken and I hope the admins fix it soon!
I liked your article. I have played some war games like erepublik.( Risk, Civilization series, Call of Duty) and I agree with the environment being a factor in a war.( ex 40% defense bonus in BC due to mountains) I would like to see more factors from real life war for once.
Good comparaison to Risk game. What we should see is the apparition of military units such as in Axies and Allies. Battleships, Fighter planes, Bomber aircrafts, Submarine, Missil launching sites, Tanks, Infantry, Paratroop, etc.
The idea of ressource is good but number of Ressources is currently limited to Raw Materials, it should be expanded to include defence terrain values such as mentioned in point 3. The game of Sid Meier's Civilisation is an example of a game taking other factors into considerations.
I agree with what has been said, the game does need upgrade to the war module in order for it to be a very fun war game. One of the easiest ways I see in doing this and making things much more challenging would be to force a country to have to have their attackers in a territory bordering the attacked territory, simultaneously the defending country would have to have defenders in the territory attack or a territory bordering the one attacked.
This would help the game in 2 ways, first forcing countries to make more co-ordinated attacks and it would give a huge boost to the moving ticket companies who see too little business as is.
Also extending the period of which a single territory war is fought over and adding a point "limit" (eg -500,000 into the underground) before a forced surrender by either side would be nice too (as lets face it, while wars have been won and lost in less then a day, lots of them take weeks/months to gain minimal ground).
The Erepublik's BETA war module was waaaaay better and more realistic
Too bad they took that out(the PvP) and put the "smash your head on a wall" module.
Yodayar hit the nail on the head.
It has always bothered me that some eCitizen in Central Hungary can participate in the Battle of Manitoba without getting off of his duff.
Even better would be liscencing EA's Battlefield engine, or that of Call of Duty and making all battles 1st person shooters.
Well, I can dream can't I?
Karl, myself and the Coyote, met in a small shed in the back of the lot at 642 Haslam in SASKATOON. Equipment was checked,... pretty scarce for what we were about to attempt.
I know these guys well, and they had already demonstated their abilities just by the fact that they were here. Coming to the middle of war torn Alberta/Sask. to save one man, ... but a special man... because he was my son. He had done absoulutly everthing that he could, fighting fot CANADA, then cut off from his unit and any supply, he somehow made it to an underground station near Turtle Lake in Saskatchewan. Officially branded as a "frenchman", we had to stay off the ground. We "borrowed" a Bell 210 helicopter from SASKTEL, Karl can drive simitrucks too!!
Luckily, there was enough fuel to get us from Saskatoon to Turle Lake, where a friend, ... lets call hin "Shawn", ... was able to top us up!
All we knew was thatr we had to go East. Pitch black below us, ... the enemy terittory, UK, FRANCE, HUNGARY, .... who knows?? We just flew EAST, ... along the southern border of my homeland, CANADA, ...we had to succeed!!
Official looking documents had been produced for SHARPIE, showing that he had been living in MEXICO, and then had been transferred to Toronto.
We finally could see the lights on the CN tower, standing as a becon for all CANADIANS, and our scence of euforia was unbounded, until our communication system froze, then died!
Our aircraft, now unidenitified, was manuvered to what seemed like just inches off the ground, by our ever resourceful, Karl, ... biting a patriotic CANADIAN regular cigarette between his teeth.
We set down on the shore of Lake Ontario, to rendesvous with the transport to take Sharpie to his 'safe house' on Pinto Avenue ... Karl lit another Canadian Regulat cigarette, Coyote kissed the sand on the beach and wonder out loud, "Think we can get someting to eat, now?"
Karl, myself and the Coyote, met in a small shed in the back of the lot at 642 Haslam in SASKATOON. Equipment was checked,... pretty scarce for what we were about to attempt.
I know these guys well, and they had already demonstated their abilities just by the fact that they were here. Coming to the middle of war torn Alberta/Sask. to save one man, ... but a special man... because he was my son. He had done absoulutly everthing that he could, fighting fot CANADA, then cut off from his unit and any supply, he somehow made it to an underground station near Turtle Lake in Saskatchewan. Officially branded as a "frenchman", we had to stay off the ground. We "borrowed" a Bell 210 helicopter from SASKTEL, Karl can drive simitrucks too!!
Luckily, there was enough fuel to get us from Saskatoon to Turle Lake, where a friend, ... lets call hin "Shawn", ... was able to top us up!
All we knew was thatr we had to go East. Pitch black below us, ... the enemy terittory, UK, FRANCE, HUNGARY, .... who knows?? We just flew EAST, ... along the southern border of my homeland, CANADA, ...we had to succeed!!
Official looking documents had been produced for SHARPIE, showing that he had been living in MEXICO, and then had been transferred to Toronto.
We finally could see the lights on the CN tower, standing as a becon for all CANADIANS, and our scence of euforia was unbounded, until our communication system froze, then died!
Our aircraft, now unidenitified, was manuvered to what seemed like just inches off the ground, by our ever resourceful, Karl, ... biting a patriotic CANADIAN regular cigarette between his teeth.
We set down on the shore of Lake Ontario, to rendesvous with the transport to take Sharpie to his 'safe house' on Pinto Avenue ... Karl lit another Canadian Regulat cigarette, Coyote kissed the sand on the beach and wonder out loud, "Think we can get someting to eat, now?"
I'm new here, but this article pretty much nails it from what I've seen so far -- seems like its all about war and the game design for war is terrible and unrealistic -- they ought to change that tutorial intro because the game I'm seeing doesn't even remotely resemble what was advertised
Good article with some valid points....I think I'll go play some Risk for a while.
SledDog is ABSOLUTELY right on with the points he has made regarding the war game aspects of this game. I too am a war-gamer from way back in the old Avalon Hill board game days, and this game has NO conception of logistics and terrain as factors in the battle outcomes.
Does anybody SERIOUSLY think these jerk-offs could have taken so many Canadian and AMERICAN territories in REAL LIFE????? FAT CHANCE!!!!! This game sucks big time in the war game department, to the point that I will probably quit playing entirely, as my enjoyment of the game has recently taken a HUGE dive.
I think that the designers had a unique concept in trying to simulate the economic and political aspects of real life, but TOTALLY have blown it when it comes to the war game aspect.
VOTED
You're right, all you say is right. Hope the Admins will heard you.
I 110% agree. I'm in the Canadian Forces and did some time in the infantry. One of the most important things in war is the supply line. With out bullets an army can not fight, with out food an army can not fight, with out orders an army can not fight. History has shown time and time again the importance of keeping your troops supplied. Many wars have been lost due to the fact that the supply line was broken. Even today as our boys fight in Afghanistan our supply routes (with run through the tribal district of Pakistan) continue to get hit because the enemy knows the advantage of cutting the supply line.
Absolutely excellent article, I agree with your main point. This isn't a wargame, or isn't supposed to be...and yet the whole world is at war. Clearly the system needs an overhaul.
Like I said before, I new here, but I get the feeling that I joined here just in time to see the game fail at least from a North American perspective -- seems that a European fix is on -- I guess they get a chance to do here what their nations never did in RL
I agree, they need more work done on the war module.
I think they oversimplfied war.
I completely agree, the war system in this game is so FUBAR its not funny. I realize it wasn't meant to be a huge componant of the game, but it is and the devs REALLY dropped the ball on it. I never understood how someone from Hungary can fight in Alberta without leaving home, it seems idiotic to say the least and the tiny bonus given to the defender is so miniscule as to be pointless.
I am quite angry by the fact we are losing our country due to the short fallings of the war module and how easy it is to exploit. Why waging a global war against a country half way across the planet is one of the easiest things to do in this game I will never know.
I loved it. All of your points are really true, except the 1st one, which is not an important one.
Absolutely agree. If we wanna play a wargame, we shouldn't be here.
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/detailed-flawed-military-strategy-881669/1/20" target="_blank">http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/deta[..]/1/20
amazing analysis and one the admins should take seriously. eRupublik HAS become a war game. however in the Admins defense they have release, in their article "2009 so far" that they plan on developing a new war module. i think that these points should be taken into account when creeating it. eRupublik shouldn't become an advanced Risk.
Sage Marshall says: "eRupublik shouldn't become an advanced Risk." the problem is that EVEN Risk requires attacks from adjacent territories, and in Risk, if you happen to plan wrong and end up with a massive army 8 territories from the front, it will take eight turns to get them there.
THIS game has none of that. It is just plain unrealistic, and the admins, when they finally figure out a more realistic model, need to cancel the game and reset ALL the countries fresh to current real life boundaries.
Another point: Many real life Canadians may join the eprovince of their real life domicile counterpart, and not realize they are fighting for the enemy. It also seems likely that if my province is overun, and I don't realize it, if I fight, I will be fighting FOR the enemy.
' I disagree with the term "1th". '
i second that.
Great article, and I agree with many of the comments too. especialy the one about using moving tickets to actully travel to the warzone.
I also think tickets should chenge their prices depending on where they are going, ex: Q1 ticket is within your country, Q2 is to another counrty, Q3 is far away, cross-contenental, Q4 being across the ocean, and Q5 might be across the ocean + wellness?
or if you used a Q3 ticket to move somewhere else in your country, that would also give you wellness...They'd have to re-do the pricing though. But it would help difine boarders and countrys better, and also make war more realistic...
As for supplying soldiers...Maybe during war, your citizen can only buy food from his/her home country, but at an added price depending on where they are. It might be 3Cad for Q1 food if we were in the US (during war), just for example.
All this would make a country's personal army more important, Defining What it means to be in the army, and how strong a country really is.
I agree with most of this - might I suggest a mod that anyone not attacking from the adjoining region gets penalized?
So, allies can help, but their effectiveness, and any other citizens not near the front, are reduced. How can someone in Indonesia do the same damage as someone attacking from right next door?
I think this adds more strategy to progressive campaigns. As you get deeper into enemy territory, citizens have less of an impact on the battle.
ya joey thats actually a good way to do it.