Affordable market for Ireland
•
by BickUA
Morning.
This won't be a big article - big one with some analytics would come out later this or next week
Somewhere about week ago CoB started lowering Q7 weapons prices on our Market reselling weapons from another markets without adding any profit (this prices were about 1.5EP/tank lower) which caused discussion in shouts involving Bhane and BiednyMis (as I see - they're big manufacturers).
Main concerns from they're side was very high price of WRMs comparing to world prices (0.05 versus 0.04 or even 0.03 sometimes) and high VAT.
Let's look at both:
1) WRM's - 12Q7 require 2400WRM => 2IEP/tank of additional cost. We can be sure that CoB bought tanks on some another market giving profit to another players + paying VAT in another country + selling it on our market also caused 15% VAT to pay. Taking this and ~1.5 IEP lower price I assume that our manufacturers are really greedy.
Right after this discussion I've bought Irish license and tried to sell my WRM's (5.7k daily => enough for producing 28 tanks) for lowest price (0.04). During next few days average price for WRM got to 0.04 (with reasonable amounts on sell). U know waht? I haven't sold any WRM for 4 or 5 days. Don't forget that 0.04 is normal prices all across erep now.
2) VAT. As I see our main Q7 tanks sellers are somehow related to politics-elite... Hm... Ok, let's ignore it. other countries have 15% VAT too and sell weapons much cheaper.
As an example - Ukraine. There's no bonus (and we ahve 20% bonus for weapons). 12% VAT vs 15% VAT in IE. Same 0.04 WRM prices.
10.70/tank in Ukraine
11.44/tank in Ireland by BiednyMis (respect from me for lowering prices. really thanks)
12.00/tank in Ireland everybody except BiednyMis.
So why are our prices for at least weapons are so high?
Cause our manufacturers are greedy. There's no other reasons. EDIT: Or possibly I'm wrong and there are other reasons (mostly VAT, communes?, low demand?).
What we need to do?
1) Me and CoB would continue to post offers on our market with world-level prices.
2) I propose everybody who's interested in normal prices for weapons/food join black market. It would operate via skype or IRC (prefer skype but depends on everybody's opinion). You'll be able to sell/buy weapons/food there without paying VAT and I'll supply this market with lowest-priced weapons I can find (whoever want to help - welcome). Ping me in skype: bickgw, or here in PM and I'll add you.
Yes, I don't care about paying VAT cause I see all our manufacturers very close to government. This why I don't care about them.
Thanks for your time. And lets make Ireland better together.
Be proud and have fun
UPDATE: Thanks for a discussion. As I've said in comments - I'll compare salaries and provide stats a bit later. If i'll be wrong and level of profit on Irish market is ~ the same as everywhere due to higher salaries or anything else - You'll see separate article with public regret but not sure about stoping lowering prices. If this would be a reason then our gov should lower taxes or do anything else to stimulate us to buy more weapons and fight more active.
Facebook
Twitter
Discord
Comments
Affordable market for Ireland
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/affordable-market-for-ireland-2337628/1/20
🙂
2400 * 0.04 = 96 IEP not 21 IEP???? Math you fail at it.. Also if there is some kind of tax on a Q7 WEP you selling below other manufacturers prices means you are usually losing money not gaining it. I will do a little experiment to show your fallacy.
2400*0.04 is 96. Ok. And what? 96 means cost of WRM's for 12 Q7 weapons.
And if you read with a bit more attention - I'm talking about differences between our market and other markets.
And difference is 0.01/WRM.
So 2400*0.01=24 IEP more is required on our market then on other ones to produce 12 Q7 tanks when WRM on our market is 0.05 and on other ones is 0.04.
About your tax part and "fallacy"... I've started to answer you, but it seems that you haven't read this article at all. Try to do it once more and then I'll answer you if there would be any questions.
96 / 12 = 8 and then taxes of about 1.22 so 9.22 and work taxes 6 * 0.50 + 1 * 0.5 math u fail at it
where did you get work tax here? And 6* work tax???
If manufacturer produce tank by himself - ok +0.5
and what'r you trying to say?
Looks like you'r failing, so stop using this word
to produce 2400 WRM by yourself you pay atleast 7 * 0.50 or 3.50 IEP to work the 7 rubber plantations that is needed for the production and then 1 Weapon factory that gives you added 4 Work tax towards your production. Add then then cost of 2400 WRM which was for a very long time 0.05 but now is 0.04 adds the 96 IEP I mentioned that gives you 100 IEP per 12 WEPS and then you have to add 1.45 per weapon income taxes that is 12 * 1.45 +- 17 IEP that gives a total for the 12 Q7 WEPS cost of 117 IEP which is a cost price of 9.75 per Weapon. That means they receive at your price of 10.21 an additional 25 cent + 21 cent profit = 46 cent profit. per WEPS which is very little for all the effort they put in it. If he US price is 9.96 a fair price for us is 9.96 + income tax which is 9.96 + 1.45 =11.41. Your submission that they are trying to rip us off is totally incorrect.
9.96 was the lowest price at your current price of 10.21 your actually losing money
screenshots to prove.
http://i.imgur.com/yRW7kL1.png
http://i.imgur.com/h1z2LrU.png
of course didnt sell it as it would be at a loss.
I won't sell them if i'll lost money.
I've bought them for 9.40. And I'm happy to sell it for 9.40 on Irish black market, which I've proposed in article.
As there's no black market yet - I sell them for 10.81 so I get exactly 9.40 after taxes.
Cunning plan 😃
The Ministry of Finance regulates domestic prices on all markets, keeping them within a margin of the worlds cheapest countries.
We cannot stop or regulate black market sales but know that by participating in them you are absconding your duty as a citizen. This could be seen as a mild form of treason.
VAT helps us pay for MPPs which keep our soldiers fighting to support our allies and keep the country active enough to bring in new citizens.
If you truly have an interest in markets and finance I recommend you apply to the MoF. I look forward to your pm.
I understand that black market would cut VAT income for country but I hope this won't be a long-term action and at some point we'll have stable normal prices on our normal market. I'd like to pay VAT when buying tanks for a normal price.
If MoF "keeping them within a margin of the worlds cheapest countries." - what's the margin (or source of data for world prices) then?
About MoF - I've started analysing markets and building my worldwide stats. I'm not experienced yet, but I already have some concerns (at least this q7 tanks).
Maybe at some point I'll think about it..
When you're ready let me know. Until then good luck.
To be fair, commune workers pay no VAT or Income tax on the value of donated supplies they receive. That is also a mild form of tax evasion.
"a mild form of treason". Marvellous 🙂
Possibly similar to being slightly pregnant?
in your ''brilliant'' calculation you forget about labour work costs after that profit of producers is not so high as you suggested
I don't suggest that profit is high. I suggest that it's higher than for another countries.
About salary - yes, i have concerns now and *possibly* I could be wrong. If i'll confirm this - you'll see my public regret.
According to country info - our average work salary is higher than average in the world.
But according to jobs market - it's equal or less than average in the world.
Once again - if I'll confirm real average salary for country in comparison to another countries and find out that it's really much higher then I'll take my words back.
but our country dont have bonuses so with one employee we produce less than others thats why other countries can afford lower price of weps and still make a profit we dont
Country I've compared in article - Ukraine.
We have 20% bonus, they have 0% bonus.
Quick compare to some other countries showed something similar (of course if country have 50% bonus I won't say that our price should be same or less than they have, takin into account vat's and work tax).
I'm currently in process of writing my software to get all info I want and build proper stats with everything taken into account.
dont just go far back in my articles where i work out the profitability of Q7 WEPS and that was without work taxes.
I'm often an advocate for cheap goods for Irish citizens, like my piece on food prices during the Epic Tournament but I think you're over simplifying the environment and being slightly unfair to the Irish manufacturers
Irish prices are going to be higher naturally because we lack bonuses to produce as many tanks as those nations with bonuses. Then Ireland has a small population - meaning our workforce is small too, hence the job market is very competitive so wages are high. So despite producing less, Irish manufacturers still pay similar wages (or at least disproportionally higher) to those countries who produce more. If you then factor in the manufacturer to worker ratios, I think Ireland doesn't have many manufacturers so we have a proportionally less supply available to our citizens. Supply and demand then also have an effect on the price - but I'm not convinced that last factor is the main reason for the higher prices, given the multiple (having not even mentioned tax) factors also at play.
Anyone can calculate the profit Tanks on the market are making. Over the year, it can vary between negative figures and +4 IEP per tank from what I've seen. Given the cost to create a Q7 Company, the profit even at +4 would put payback time in the years. That is mainly the game created by the admins, and that is where my sympathy for manufacturers kinda ends when it comes to playing the economic game, because there isn't really one. Most seem to understand that the payback of a high Q company isn't economic, but militarily.. Ireland runs alot of communes, our social structure enhances my previously mentioned factor of lacking manufacturers taking part in the market - in comparison to your example of Ukraine, perhaps they have more manufacturers taking part in the market, maybe some of these countries have more citizens who actually buy gold. When you think of the great Tankers, those who buy gold in hundreds of Euros, some countries have more of them than others!
I don't 100% agree with you, but there are good thoughts. Main thing, with what I agree - lack of salary analysis. This is being fixed and we've had same discussion with BiednyMis a bit above.
Re taxes - I've included VAT in my calculations. Work tax won't affect calculations so much - only 0.5IEP per 12 tanks.
Why I've not included work tax and salaries in this article? Cause main complains in recent shouts discussion was WRM and VAT.
Re demand - I think I agree with you and Liam Tatlock. We need to stimulate demand on our market. (I've left my opinion in your article about IA)
Re profits, more manufacturers, etc - well... it's free market. Or it should be so.
MAYBE with some stupid guy like me lowering prices our manufacturers would chase gov more and think more about doing something with current situation. Maybe no. Who knows.
I'm not a master of finances, but I'd think ti would be difficult to make major changes on our market with the current commune structure. A lot of supply never sees the open market.
Most of these points have already been made, but I'll stick my two pennorth in. Whilst I sympathise with the idea of a "Black Market", it's just bypassing the main problem as well as cutting national income. The main issue is supply and demand. There simply isn't the demand in this country so prices are frequently higher than elsewhere. I'd love to sell my Q7s on the Irish market, but I can sell in USA in a few hours, sometimes minutes, at a lower price, while my offers in Ireland (at the current lowest price) can sit there for days. THAT's the issue to solve.
Sounds very reasonable.
Lowering vat => lower prices => a bit more demand
and fill treasury from another sources?
We could consider subsidizing the treasury from MM returns from bank investments, or refining our MPP stack to be more affordable to a slightly lower budget.
Lowering VAT needs to be done, for sure.
Some of the manufacturers you're talking about often clash horns with myself and others in government over taxation. Including our new President, I might add. It doesn't matter that they're "close" to us, we don't give them any help.
If anything, this country is socialist, our governmental policies are quite hostile to private enterprise because the military is the central institution, and military needs come first.
Lowering VAT won't decrease prices significantly or increase demand. We're too small for that to happen.
What military needs? MPP's? If I'm correct - MPP cost 10k IEP/month.
If we'll have one less MPP it'll save us 10000IEP which ~ 7000 Q7 tanks without VAT at all. => 233 tank/per day could be sold without VAT. I think it's close to our volume or even more.
this would mean about 13% decrease of price (with some profit for manufacturers) which means more damage from our country, more active life, more fun. No?
MPPs are not the only military expense of the country. Combat orders, mercenaries, Resistance war costs, travel expenses for foreign volunteers, supplemental food supplies, there are any number of other expenses. Ideally, we'd also look to expand the state's inventory of companies, but given that they have to be held privately and the expense of that. Furthermore, MPPs are more than just for our own military security, they are utterly key to our strategic diplomatic objectives.
An MPP or 10000 IEP is worth more to the country than a temporary 13% decrease in the private market price of Q7 weapons. Given the level of communisation in the country, it is a trival concern.
Maybe worth stimulating Irish citizens to fight (13% discount is not so small, yes) instead of paying mercenaries? I'd prefer less money in treasury and spent on mercenaries but more fighting oportunities for our citizens. Or we're feeding other countries with our taxes 😑
Why temporarily 13% discount?
+ to MPP's.
What our security? We're not fighting for ourselves 90% of time.
FYI
All taxes pay for MPPs. All other military funding comes from MoF investment operations.
Ok, Brian.
"Military way" (lol) way of Ireland consume lot of money.
Is there any financial report of country income and expenses (with a simple breakdown by sources/destinations)?
Laugh all you want at the idea of the military as the central institution, it's the only way this country has survived to avoid permanent occupation.
MPPs help our security by increasing the cost of invading us; More MPPs, more damage the Brits need to counteract our damage. It's a relatively simply concept, I would have thought someone with your game experience would understand the value of that. Not to mention the value of fighting for our friends via MPP.
As for a breakdown of income and expenses, the Minister for Finance would have a better idea. As far as I know, the exact figures are either classified or impossible to compile due to use of private funds. The general amounts spent have been reported to members of congress at various times on a need to know basis. The reason for this is simple: if the enemy has a good idea of how much money we have and need, they can calculate our military capability and the capability needed to defeat us in a variety of situations. While they can probably find ways to get that information, a government that simply hands them the formula on a plate is a government of idiots.
Regardless, even if we didn't need the money for immediate expenses, saving the money is a good idea as well: Wars are expensive, and the only way a small country like eIreland can afford to exist is to save up in peacetime.
nice to see antoher mate who takes care of our market 🙂
good job and good luck to you !
destroy the eCapitalistic pigs.... VOTED
I think we're closer to communism now with all our supplies and communes 🙂
And we need to be a bit closer to capitalism/socialism at least 🙂
P.S. Bick
"So why are our prices for at least weapons are so high?
Cause our manufacturers are greedy. There's no other reasons."
That is complete garbage.
Prices are so high because costs are so high. I have operated at higher losses than you could know for years. The admins refusal to fix the economic module means that profitabiliy will likely never return to eIreland. I don't expect to ever "break even" at this point, even if we do see occasional periods of profit like the first two events.
You spend hundreds of gold on eIrish salaries and sell your products at a consistent loss for a few years... then talk to me about greed. My current balance is 28g and 1,872cc.
Bhane, I've already answered to same citation from article 🙂
If i'll be wrong (and it looks close to this) about reasons of our prices - I'll apologize for that.
Good luck.
I'd love for someone to figure out some method to make my Irish manufacturing viable. I have had to go back to selling gold on the MM to get currency for salaries. I have a stockpile of thousands of tanks that cost 12 IEP when they were made. So, I am keeping them posted as a "wall" against the potential inflation of the next big event.
For Brian... lowering VAT would lower my prices. VAT is 1.5-2 IEP extra that must be charged on the market just to regain the cost of production for Q7s.
Bick, I hope you can figure something out.
Talking to communists about the fair market that pays for their MPP tax revenue is like talking to a brick wall. They think that making high VAT just creates they money they want out of thin air... not realizing that someone has to pay that cost. And it's not them receiving free supplies in their communes.
Keep the discourse going Brick. Maybe something can get figured out.
fire their asses bhane and make me mof i will have this country working like a capitalist factory in a few days.
Maybe you want to join initiative to sell your weapons not via market?
At least this will allow you to sell more weapons and allow us to get more weapons with better prices.
That would make him a tax dodger, which would sort of threaten his moral highground position on the subject of taxes and communes.
Some would argue that it would be treason as well, given our precarious military position.
Well said, Brian.
I occasionally have done small deals to eIrish citizens that want to pay gold for tanks, because they earned a medal reward and gold is what they have available. But those occasions are few and far between.
I will never make the move to the black market. I want to operate within the free market system. i just want the market to be viable.
Ach, c'mon Boru with the treason... Appleman already said it was only a mild form of a dose....
Classic Bhane, blame the communes. I'm older than him, yet his memory seems to be troubling him. He can't remember the atrocious war profiteering and military weakness that we had before, whereas I remember it with an appalling clarity. Though we did have a glimpse of that during the events, which was equally atrocious. The admins do make it hard for small countries, it has to be said, normally a large commune presence results in lower prices, but with low production thanks to the bonuses, military use of commune production, and high importation taxes due to protectionist ideas, prices remain high.
I don't blame communes.
I embrace communes as being part of our society, and I endorse anybody that wishes to live in one. I endorse policies that help communes operate like the minimum wage to allow for basically untaxed volunteer labor. I recognize that a 10-20 IEP minimum wage would completely FUBAR communes, and I would never endorse such a move.
Most communists do not reciprocate the same respect. They are happy to endorse policies that undermine the free market. Since it does not affect them personally, they have no stake in it, and are happy to screw over the people that operate in the taxed free market. The same market that generates the revenues we use for MPPs.
When the spoespeople for communes show the same respect I give them, then their words will carry more weight.
10-20 minimum wage would completely FUBAR both military units and some private enterprises as well, so it's more of a nuclear option than an actual strategy against communes. One that would probably see the offending parties removed from office due to the influence of the former group affected.
That said, I agree. We do not respect free market ideas. They are in fundamental disagreement with how we see the best route to both optimum military capability and a society worthy of the name.
However, trust me, the Irish commune system is far from as hostile as it could be towards those reliant on the market. Like I said, the military currently uses all commune production. They can be and have been used in the past as a hammer on prices, to permanently drive prices below cost to for-profit companies. Instead, they're used for everyone's benefit via military service.
[removed]