Brotherhood is a two-way street
mihail.cazacu
This is a follow-up to the previous article.
I will start with the comment made by TheManiacBG to that article (comment #130, you can find it on the second page of comments).
He wrote:
"mihail You wrote that it was a stupid request from Bulgaria to want turkey out of EDEN. Well who says it is not a sutpid request? See it doesn't matter if it was a stupid or smart request!! It was a request from a loyal EDEN member to the alliance that should have respected that request..not like it or accept it..just to respect it!! To respect Bulgaria and Bulgarians because EDEN still exist mostly because of Bulgaria!! EDEN didn't show the respect that Bulgaria and Bulgarians deserve!!"
There points he is raising are worth a very in-depth discussion because they hold the key to everything really interesting which happens in this game.
Let's begin with the game itself:
- The economic module is crap;
- The political module is garbage;
- The media module is crippled since the Admins decided to make it impossible to publish in other countries;
The only module which makes this game still playable is the military module. So this game is a war-based game. A game of military strategy.
No country in this game is strong enough to win all the battles alone. So all the countries need to make alliances.
What is the reason to form alliances? To become strong enough to defeat the opposition.
Now here is the interesting thing: even though the goal of forming alliances is to defeat the opposition, there are different ways to form alliances.
During the history of this game two different philosophies emerge😛
A. We form an alliance based on strength only. If a country which was strong once becomes weak, she loses her influence inside the alliance. That what happened to Indonesia and Russia in PEACE and Phoenix and what is currently experiencing Spain and Hungary in ONE. The founders of such alliance openly and repeatedly stated they want to bring together a small number of very strong members. The weak members join at their own risk (see the statements of Kampec and DesertHamster when the smaller members of those alliances were wiped out).
B. We form an alliance based on universally accepted moral principles. Each member is treated as equal. Large countries sacrifice their immediate interests to bring back on the map, at least for the election day, even the least powerful member of the alliance. Large countries risk to be wiped out instead of building empires only because they are committed to those universally accepted moral principles. So instead of deserting their allies to join the other camp, like Spain and Poland did, they stick to their comrades and take a collective plunge into the routine: wipe out - RW - wipe out - RW.
At first glance such approach goes against the essence of the game, which is to form alliances strong enough to win wars.
But if we look closely, this approach is just another route to the same destination: forming a dominant alliance.
Most of the human beings are fundamentally good and decent. Had most of us been rotten to the core, we would be today just another species of apes, unable to form sophisticated societies and incapable of scientific and cultural developments. Everything really important can only be achieved through joint efforts. And cooperation requires good behavior towards your fellows.
Since most of the human beings are fundamentally good, it means that most of the eRepublik players are also fundamentally good. This in turn means that in time most of the players would want to be in that alliance which is built on sound moral principles. That alliance would be bigger and stronger, even if it takes a much longer time to get there.
If we are clear about the two models for forming alliances in eRepublik we can now look at the Bulgarian - Turkish conflict triggered by Turkey's application to join EDEN.
The Bulgarians who say EDEN should have respected Bulgaria's decision, even if it was a stupid one say this:
"We put our self-interest above the common interest and all of you should sabotage yourselves so we can feel good".
Did the Turks enslave and maltreated all the Balkan countries for about 500 years?
Yes they did. But none of those Turks is still alive today. Nor is any of their victims still alive.
OK, so the nowadays Turks aren't responsible for 500 years of savagery. But are the Turks of today ashamed of what their ancestors did? Some are. Some aren't. But let's look at the fundamentals of a true conflict:
Turkey today has a Real Life territorial dispute with Greece over some rocks in the Aegean Sea. The Turkish players and the Greek players are in the age bracket which makes them eligible for military service. This in turn means one day a Greek player and a Turkish player might shoot at each other with real bullets or fire real bazookas at real tanks.
Yet the Turkish players and the Greek players did in this game what other sworn enemies had already done in real life: joined forces for the common good. In Real Life the German-French conflict lasted 4 times longer that the Turkish-Balkan conflict and yet the Germans and the French finally realized that killing each other was idiotic and both nations were better off cooperating. It took them 2000 years but, just like I said, since most of the Germans and most of the French are decent human beings, eventually they have come to the obvious conclusion that joining efforts for the common good is a much better strategy.
So where does that place the Bulgarian rejection of Turkey based on "500 years of slavery"? For sure nowhere in the realm of decent human behavior.
What about the objection "Turks are cheaters"?
The Indonesians, the Russians, the Poles and the Serbs are other proven cheaters in this game. But here is the thing: when the last Turkish president was banned for cheating, many Turks wrote: "cheaters have no nationality". I know at least the Poles and the Russians were actively hunting down the cheaters in their own countries. Since the majority of the human beings are decent everywhere I can safely assume that was the case also in Indonesia and Serbia.
So if you consider the other proven cheaters legitimate allies because only a fraction of them are really dishonest, then the same should apply to the Turks, shouldn't it?!
What about the objection "we don't hate the Turks, best proof is we were allied with Inci"?
Everybody in EDEN was allied with Inci because that was damaging Turkey at the time Inci was sabotaging the rest of the Turkish community. Inci had a combination of motives to turn against their fellow countrymen. Some motives were ideological, some were "4 teh lulz". But what really mattered was Inci was bad for Turkey. Are you guys still allied to Inci now?!
By all generally accepted moral standards those 62% of the Bulgarians who opposed Turkey's membership in EDEN were wrong. Decent human beings join efforts to build something together. Idiots are at each other's throats instead of cooperating for the mutual benefit.
And what is true in real life is true also in this game. When Bulgaria was still in EDEN she had a stable source of bonuses. If the Bulgarians would have done the right thing and signed that MPP with Turkey, the number of bonuses would have increased even further. That is a clear in-game proof that joining forces for the common good is indeed the natural option.
So what happened when Bulgaria decided to go against the profoundly human behavior of cooperating? For the last 3 months she left the alliance she had to struggle to defend her core regions, never having an additional bonus for at least 3 days in a row.
Yes, Bulgaria had the right to veto Turkey. The real question is this: if the Bulgarians considered themselves the brothers of the other EDEN countries, should they have sabotaged those brothers by exercising their right to veto?
Every Bulgarian player had this option:
1) To act selfishly, sacrifice the possibility of the whole alliance to win wars by pushing Turkey away;
2) To act generously and be a team player, working with the rest of EDEN and Turkey, for the common good.
Just like in real life, selfish behavior didn't pay off.
The only good thing is that since EDEN is built on cooperation, EDEN can find solutions to accommodate Bulgaria's strategic need for resources as soon as Bulgaria decides to join forces with the other EDEN members, for the common good.
The same is true for the other members of the new alliance Bulgaria is in: Chile and South Korea. In each case arrangements can be made so each country can work out a mutually beneficial arrangement with her neighbors.
All what is needed is the willingness to cooperate. And since most of the Bulgarians are decent human beings, like everybody else, cooperation will happen as soon as that noisy minority who sabotages cooperation loses the grip over the Bulgarian community.
Comments
first : )
voted
Forget about "brotherhood for a moment and let's talk about alliance. Any real alliance would try to avoid internal conflicts because that's something that can bring even the strongest alliance appart. This is why there is the right to veto, even by a single country. Look at RL for examples for this and think why this is the way it is. Only you decide you can force a country to accept something it doesn't want for the "greater good". The results are of course expected.
oh, what's done is done and that's that : )
Large countries risk to be wiped out instead of building empires only because they are committed to those universally accepted moral principles
___
what a lot of rubish. Tell that to Belarus or Portugal for example. ATM the only one sacrificing themselves are whole EDEN for Turkey. Just because you and a bunch of others have some really funny ideas. . ; )
@Wildrunner:
I said "common good" which means good for Bulgaria, good for Turkey, good for the other members of EDEN. How logical and how morally sound was for those Bulgarians to go against the good of Bulgaria?
You had bonuses in Russia and you could have increased those bonuses with the bonuses from Iran. Now you have nothing a ping-pong with Turkey.
You went against your own interests in the name of what? Rabid nationalism and a misplaced sense of pride ("we were not respected")?
"selfish behavior didn't pay off." said by damehood, loooooooooooool.
Bulgaria leaving you has hurt you so much that you now have your rational judgement totally clouded. For example right now there is one very important battle going on Poland vs USA at Midtjylland. With Poland winning this battle soon USA will be kicked out of Denmark and UK and Holland and Germany won't get free anytime soon. also Polish-Russian war will be closed soon after that.
But what is EDEN doing meanwhile? Fight for Marmara, Turkey, a region with a duplicate resource for Turkey first and a region that even if conquered can easily be freed after that. But USA cannot go back to Poland that easily neither Germany or Holland can free themselves easily.
So you may call this sacrifice, strategy, bla bla, I call it butthurtness, obsession and a huge LOL. As if letting yourselves to be wiped for Turkey during the last month wasn't enough...
@Wildrunner:
The battles will be fought and won or lost according to each side's raw power and ability to coordinate. ONE has now the upper hand. Let's see if they can use it.
All the past history shows failure is strong in them. So I prefer to count the chickens after they hatch.
v
The bonuses are only a tool, mihail, they are not a goal.
All the past history shows failure is strong in them. So I prefer to count the chickens after they hatch.
_____
Well, but you claim to be the better organized alliance, "da brotherhood". All I'm seeing in the last month is "all in for Turkey" even if it doesn't make any strategic sense at all. I'm starting to think that now you'd never be able to get over this.
@Wildrunner:
And what would that goal be, which can be achieved by sticking to what is worse in human nature: hatred, irrational pride, stupidity?
cooperation will happen as soon as that noisy minority who sabotages cooperation loses the grip over the Bulgarian community.
____
Who is the noisy minority? Flausino? BTW he won the elections with over 2k votes.... If you think that's a minority... then OK ; )
Mihail, the only irrational one here it is you, too bad you still can't realize it.
I don't even understand what you are proposing. Stop the war with Turkey? We can do that right away btw, but like I said then we can go after you and I don't think we need any kind of cooperation with you whatsoever to do that, unless you're willing to cooperate with us to conquer you, but who knows ; )
The goal in this game is only one, it is to have fun, because this is a GAME and that's pretty much the purpose of all games as far as I'm aware. ; )
@Wildrunner:
You personally might turn out to be a lost cause but what matters is the rest of the Bulgarians to return to cooperating with EDEN for the common good.
Good article. But outdated. Let me suggest more recent example of the same two way selfish behavior.
(1) eRussia occupied and holds core eUkrainian regions against the will of eUkraine and drains damage of both eUkraine and eRussia in Siveria RW. Need to add that eRussia is supported in this RW by ePoland, eBulgaria and eSerbia fighters. At the same time eRussia attacks ePoland in Mazuria and eUSA is attached by ePoland in Denmark
(2) eUkraine demands return of its core regions giving no bonus
get lost with rl issues and arguments!
i dont like turkey ingame and thats it.period.i will never be ally with them.
and more,mihail,you are delusional.eden and bulgaria are over.no chance to repair whats fubar
先mark晚点看
@mihail.cazacu please stop, we cooperated with EDEN for one (almost) year. And i think we proved to be good ally. Then some guy believed he know best and for one month all Bulgarians should have accepted Turkey in something we thought is brotherhood. Well, we can accept NAP with them, but they are not our brothers. I personally voted yes, but i don`t like eTurkey since our conflict with them when we left Phoenix.
All this is closed page, i am rational, but i don`t want to go back in EDEN - suspending us on our national day, spiting on our face after that by accepting Turkey again (after legitimate vote), then the Greece attack. Those are things i dont want to forget easily.
^ mihail i might be a lost cause but you got your answer here from one of the guys who didn't want to leave eden till the end. So good luck, mate ; )
Wildrunner Day 1,632, 01:25
Dear sir, you are deliberately forgetting important facts.
1) The idea of inviting Turkey in EDEN is accepted and agreed on the level of the entire alliance. No one was opposed, even Bulgaria.
2) Turkey is invited to EDEN, all members voted yes, and even Bulgaria.
3) After that Bulgaria changes its position and requested cancellation of Turkish membership in EDEN
Thus Bulgaria unconditionally accepting Turkish membership in EDEN in the beginning of the negotiation.
If her idea of inviting Turkey to the EDEN does not fit, Bulgaria should immediately vote against the proposal to inviting Turkey to Eden. Turkey are not be invited to EDEN.
Such behavior Bulgaria is deliberately sabotaging the EDEN alliance, so that Bulgaria has a legitimate reason for leaving Eden. The fact that Bulgarian behavior did not moral, is not fair, nor honorable.
Bulgarian people are to misled by a group of selfish people. These group are tricking Bulgarian people. This group is makes scammers of Bulgarian people .
You are scammed your friends and allies,
whether you like it or not, unfortunately this is so.
@Mr.Gatev:
So what you say is that feelings of dislike should take over the rational decision that an alliance with Turkey was beneficial for Bulgaria and for everybody else in EDEN?
If feelings take over reason, what need do we have for the brain? The rest of the animal world is governed by feelings and instincts. Should we get down to their level?
@mf2hd.bg:
Brotherhood is a two way street: one should wish well for oneself and also to wish well for one's brothers.
There never were negotiations with Bulgaria, there were just question about it, previous goverment refused, romper and co simply waiting for a goverment that'd accept a trial, that CP didn't even inform the congress about it not to mention he himself was misleaded as to what exactly was all this about, but we've repeated that so many times, so what you're a suggesting is simply not true.
@mf2hd.bg:
I wrote about the stupid actions like suspending Bulgaria right during the National Day or the Greek attack. The question is: do we keep accumulating stupidities or do we stop and start building bridges?
How it should have been done? If turkey wanted to come to EDEN it should have come in direct talks with the two countries that might object to this Greece and Bulgaria and not to Romper, Zdlemmy and who knows who else puppet master wannabees. I dunno if they negotiated with Greece they most probably did since they made the arabian deal with them but they for sure never came to clear up relations with Bulgaria they thought they'd simply force themselves in just because Romper promised them so.
And now you have the results of all this. You can blame Bulgaria as much as you want, be my guest, it aint gonna change anything.
Smiljan,
What about that acceptance was done against the Bulgarian congress and eBulgarian people will? Also the preliminary voting was not performed by our CP, but from the Bulgarian representative in EDEN. Is this normal? Is it normal that EDEN was disrespecting Bulgarian decision 3 months? Please stop with your poor propaganda. Your choice was done - Turkey. Kiss your new bro and be strong to meet consequences...
Ok i`ll say this as simple as i can : I don`t like EDEN anymore. I don`t want to be in EDEN. I am not regretting we have left EDEN. True, we do not have bonuses (Greece and Turkey also btw), but we do have our dignity.
@Sasho Ve:
There is a HUGE problem with the "disrespect" issue: what you are saying is that the rest of EDEN should have accepted the irrational rejection of Turkey?
What can brotherhood mean if one brother (Bulgaria) wanted to weaken everybody else?
Brothers are supposed to help each other be stronger, not weaker. Bulgaria herself was stronger when Turkey was in EDEN: back then Bulgaria had bonuses. Now she doesn't. She only has ping-pong.
@mf2hd.bg:
Could by any chance the notion of dignity be misplaced?
Is it really dignity the fact of feeling good after making a bad decision for the wrong reasons? Or is it just denial?
mihail,
Irrational rejection? More than 60% ot eBulgarian citizens said NO to Turkey in EDEN in the official referendum. There is no need for any other reasons for Turkey's rejection.
Are you stronger with Turkey now?
After we left EDEN and declared WAR on Turkey, we are united. We don't have bonuses, but it doesn't matter. We have the fun from that game 😉
The rejetion of turkey was not irrational, actually it was the rational thing to do, atleast following your own dmg criteria. As Bulgaria is stronger than Turkey you're now much worse than before Turkey changed sides. So tell me more about rationality pls.
@mihail.cazacu it is your opinion that it was bad decision for the wrong reasons. I don`t see it this way.
mihail, sorry but you weakened yourselves by inviting turkey behind our backs and later by trying to force upon us to accept turkey as an ally. We did make many compromises btw, we were willing to let turkey in peace, but apparently that wasn't enough for you, so now you don't even have that.
and quit with the bonuses thing already, if we want bonuses we'd sing peace with turkey and will go north, are you sure you want that?
@Sasho Ve:
If 62% Bulgarians vote that 2+2=5 that is a majority vote, not a rational decision.
@Wildrunner:
How was it rational to reject Turkey when the Turkish damage allowed you to keep your colonies while fighting Serbia and Macedonia?
@mf2hd.bg:
What good reason was there to reject Turkey?
"500 years of slavery", "they are cheaters", "we want to be respected even if we screw everybody else"?!
A good reason makes sense by rational and moral standards. None of the above does.
@mihail.cazacu what done is done... stop with your articles about which is better for Bulgaria. We know which is better for us. Be happy with your ally Turkey. Why all the EDEN is so possessed by Bulgaria...
@Wildrunner:
If you want long lasting bonuses you sign peace with Turkey and get North Caucasus (oil), Volga (fruit), Mazandaran (a bridge to saltpeter) and Semnan (saltpeter). And I am very sure I want you to get those regions.
If you however want to go somewhere else you will get the same type of ping-pong you have now.
@eWorldCitizen:
All the EDEN remembers when Bulgaria was a member and all the EDEN agrees that having BOTH Bulgaria and Turkey is better than having only Bulgaria or only Turkey.
It looks quite a legitimate reason to want Bulgaria back, doesn't it?
What colonies? You talk as if we had an empire. 1 weapon bonus from north caucasus. ; )
We simply had nothing to lose that much.But YOU on the other hand had a a lot to lose, especially Turkey. I can understand why you're so upset now.
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@mihail.cazacu it's a dream. Bulgaria will never return into EDEN neverrrr. For what to pay for bonuses , to help Turkey get bonuses for free.. to help Romania take free bonuses from Hungary, to help Croatia go to Mexico and takes bonuses for free... Only Bulgaria must pay for there bonuses... Nope i don;t think so . We will take it for free from the ukrainian traitors . And of the story.
Turkey has 35 regions ... we have only 8... Romania has deleted every 2 days there biggest enemy Hungary , same for Croatia, Greece have 30 regions...
And what we have ?????? 2 rent regions from Russia. How nice is that?
And sorry for my bad english . But i hope you'll understant me what i'm trying to say.
OK cakazu how about we take Marmara(fruit), Black Sea Coast of Turkey(deer), Taurida(Saltpeper), Bessarabia(Fish) and Muntenia(oil) and then we sign peace with you.