Response to Demonaire and Community Failure
Gnilraps
Day 3571 of the New World
August 30, 2017
If you have not sent Demonaire a friend request yet, do so. He is an asset to eRepublik and you should follow him.
And if you haven't read his excellent article criticizing the eRep "Community" for its implicit role in the sad state of eRepublik, stop reading this now and read it first. No really, I'll wait.
And though I had intended to do some work on Meme Wars (results are due TOMORROW!), I am instead writing a reply to Demonaire's article. I don't usually do much of this, but since Demonaire called me out (more on that below), it only seemed right for me to reply. So I started typing out a comment in his article. When I ran out of space, I knew it was time to publish my response instead.
Summary of Demonaire's Article
Demonaire refers to the eRepublik player base as the "Community". He rightly points out the many prominent criticisms made by the Community of the "administrators and developers" (or Devs) over the years. Anyone who reads the eRep Forum knows that every game change is met with whining, trolling, and complaining.
Every change.
Demonaire's point is that the Devs have had the game's best interest in mind and have done their best to improve the game (making some mistakes along the way), meanwhile the Community has failed the game by misusing the game improvements and avoiding leftist policies. Here are a few quotes from Demonaire:
Speaking about Combat Orders: "That would be the first time (the) Community gave up..."
Speaking about Work Tax: "the thing that disappoints me the most is to see "communist", "socialist" and, overall, far leftists and leftists political parties around the world radically against raising Work Tax, like behaving as zombies for right-wing parties. Bonte put his bets on the Community for them to change. And the Community didn't live up to his expectations."
Speaking about the implementation of Freedom Fighter: "Community didn't do anything..."
Speaking about Taxation of Occupied Regions: "Countries turned tributes and peace agreements/NAPs with sum in golds/money in taboo. [Irony]Bravo![/Irony]"
and so on.
With regard to Dictatorship, Demonaire criticizes the Community: "Making use of an extraordinary but known fear to the changes, Community decided to mount defensive dictatorships around the world with the sole purpose to keeping the current status-quo."
There is much more.
Demonaire's most transparent criticism of the Community comes as he recalls a 16 Shells article. Here's Demonaire: "All of you can see it. If Plato really admitted eRepublik is dead, as Gnilraps once told us, Community was the murderer, or, at least, an accomplice for that murder."
According to Demonaire, I and others regard the Community as "just a good girl troubled by that "ugly bastard" called Plato." And later he calls us all "cowards".
Again, if you haven't read his article, please do. It's quite good, filled with many valid points, and yet several things I'll take issue with below.
Positives from Demonaire's Article
First of all, Demonaire is to be commended for publishing his article out-of-country. This underutilized (albeit expensive) mechanic could certainly be better frequented by a motivated publisher. This is a point made by Demonaire himself. [logic]Bravo![/logic]
And Demonaire is also to be commended for taking a new look at an old problem. I have not read anything like this article before. This is original thinking.
As to the substance of Demonaire's criticisms, I am sure he is onto something vital. There is no doubt that a "status quo" mentality has dominated eRepublik at least ever since the Community base began shrinking. There are reasons for this, however status quo is a killer. He's right.
It is also quite true that the level of criticism coming from otherwise disengaged players is astounding. Complaining, as Demonaire adroitly points out, is easy. I wish Demonaire would have done better to distinguish between active players criticizing and disengaged players criticizing. More on that later.
In total, I think the general point that Demonaire makes - Game Developers should not receive 100% of the blame for the current state of eRepublik - is spot on. I hope many people will take Demonaire's main point to heart and get to work on a new approach to eRepublik. Remember, people, this game is a Tabula Rasa... Go make something!
But Demonaire pushes things too far...
My Disagreements with Demonaire
I've already stated that in essence, Demonaire is on solid ground for casting blame onto the Community. In eUSA, for instance, dead citizens have long been afforded positions of influence in the meta-community where they ought to have none. Many of these dead ones are my own game friends. But I wish they'd either leave entirely or else start playing again. They are decidedly not helping. These are the kinds of disengaged players who really have no right to complain anymore.
But the flaw in Demonaire's thinking has more to do with how he regards game mechanics.
Let's start with the Dictatorship module. Demonaire correctly identifies the potential (and ultimately realized) problems it create
😛reduced access to the political game. But Demonaire, along with the Devs, were hoping that the mechanic itself would add some increased political variety. Their thought: "Maybe some Socialist idealist would overthrow a right-wing government, enforce high taxation and aggressive domestic social programs, thus creating a nation truly different than it was under Democracy." It's a lovely hope and an admirable theory. In my opinion, this game would be vastly greater if it were possible to implement wildly Left or Right Wing policies. How great would it be to see Alliances formed based on Fascist or Communist or Socialist or Democratic ideals? It would be AWESOME.
But what Demonaire and Devs seemed to overlook was that the game mechanics themselves hindered this lofty ideal. Ever since the destruction of the International Market (independent country currencies, globalized citizen mobility, and the disastrous "resource wars" distribution, etc.) the economy has become elementary and simplistic. This means that there is a very narrow band of optimized settings for Work Tax, Import Tax, VAT, and Minimum Wage. Any Dictator which would seriously deviate from these optimized settings would be destroying his Nation's economy. Remember, a citizen can work anywhere in the world, can work-as-manager in foreign-held companies, and can simply stop working if policies don't favor his efforts. In short, there is only one type of "government" in eRepublik that is truly wise: the government which optimizes the settings based on simple economic game mechanics.
So to criticize the community for utilizing the Dictatorship module as to the only real benefit it offered,defense against foreign invasion, is like criticizing a chef for making a crappy meal out of rotted ingredients. Or to quote Jesus, "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". If you are interested in hearing what he then went on to say about what happens to "every tree that does not bear good fruit", google it.
My general disagreement with Demonaire's article can be extrapolated from what I've just illustrated about the Dictatorship module. Devs produce a new mechanic, new mechanic does not elementally affect the narrow band of optimized settings, Community adapts new mechanic into old game style.
This is a decidedly different narrative than Demonaire's.
Review of My Points
When game mechanics are established that create narrow arrays of optimized game-play, a wise player base will always find that narrow array and focus its game-play there.
Not: Players should experiment with unwise settings because it might be fun.
eRepublik game mechanics have grown more simplistic over time, thus creating even narrower arrays of optimized game-play and fostering an atmosphere of boredom.
Not: The Community has acted like babies who fail to appreciate how good things truly are.
The eRepublik community should be scolded for its childish attitude toward a hard-working Admin, but should not be blamed for the game mechanics.
Not: If the Community would just embrace every game change the game would be better.
Play the game or get lost. If you're not into this game anymore, stop poisoning the waters with invective against those who remain. Play the game or get lost. You are the real cowards.
Not: I used to play this game therefore I have a reputation but I don't play anymore yet I still want to preserve my reputation.
and finally,
New changes to the game, in order to succeed, must also be accompanied by careful thought (if not wholesale changes) to existing mechanics.
Not: Let's throw something out there without giving true thought to how it intersects with the game while we stubbornly hold to the very mechanics which damaged the game in the first place.
Direct Message to Demonaire
I am an extremely active citizen, I have given away tens of millions worth of Gold/CC to other players in hopes of making the game better for everyone, and I've played long enough to understand the fundamentals of how the game has changed. I therefore claim the right to criticize in a respectful way what I see wrong. While I have at times overstepped the "respect" boundary, I reject the accusation of cowardice, nor do I regard the community as heroine. The Community has warts which should be burned off. But there is only so much the Community can do. People like master_rg and YUI are doing more than their share to foster a positive gaming experience. They should not be regarded as coward either. Lastly, thank you for an excellent publication. I would be pleased to call you "friend".
You may now return to your regularly scheduled clicking
Comments
Shout:
Did the eRep Community fail Plato?
https://www.erepublik.com/en/article/2649526/1/20
TL😉R
It must suck to have like 10000 dollars invested into this game. Aristotle always preached moderation but you listened to Plato, didn't you.
[SFP] Dictatorship of the Proletariat
https://www.erepublik.com/en/article/--2649564
Socialismo o muerte!
Love your style of writing, as always.
Thanks man
Cheap gangnam style!
Okay,
but Plato still get free € form player every month, they don't want to change.
If they want to change, return to the root. Delate all pack, they are break eRepublik balance.
That would be amazing.
This article touches a very disappoint aspect of erepublik: the lack of possibility to implement policies based on different ideologies or theories, due to the very simplified economic and political module (since ingame governmental actions are basically fixed). It's a shame, since the game sells itself as a "political, economic, social and military simulation" or something like that, but in reality it's not so much different than a "guild wars" military-focused game
Voted!
I would love to see greater potential in politics.
As always the VP for life has given me a great idea.
perhaps we should discuss it over a cocktail?
good idea
https://www.erepublik.com/en/article/what-is-a-computer-worm-and-how-does-it-spread--2649342/1/20
Please take this vote
Taxation of Occupied Regions... interesting so if you want to be a dictator i guess you just tax all your regions heavy to pay for it.
Increase the taxes and watch everyone not work for a few days.. No tax revenue means you lose your dictatorship.
It's the consistent refusal to acknowledge this basic fact that continues to befuddle me about some in our community.
It's not so much the taxation itself (I, for instance, am against that update), it was a reminder from the devs, in their crude forms, that, long time ago, countries used to settle wars with gold/money.
But when devs have those nostalgia attacks...
"eRepublik game mechanics have grown more simplistic over time, thus creating even narrower arrays of optimized game-play and fostering an atmosphere of boredom."
This sums it up pretty nicely !
07
Would endorse again. And again. And again.
Thank you for writing this one. There is no cowardice or any lack of creative imagination.
'It's the economy, stupid.'
Spot on.
Don't even try to make a counter-argument, right?
So piggish 😃
o7
votado
v
v
Main points.
1. "I reject the accusation of cowardice, nor do I regard the community as heroine."
As for the heroine part, I'll proceed to edit that part. As for the cowardice part... First, it wasn't a specific accusation to you, Yui and Master_rg, but a general accusation for everyone in the Community (myself included). Second, since I'm not very much into the idiom, I can get that people can piss off by such strong, offensive word, and, in that sense, I have the duty to change it and truly apologize to all of you by my evident lack of politeness. But the point remains.
And let me clear it: I truly commend the three of you (and anyone, by extension) who had or still are contributing with Community wellness, But Community wellness is just a (important) topic inside the general framework, a framework that, under current situation, requires courageous and brave actions (of course, not reckless or careless) that still aren't taken (and we all know the words Community deserves when such actions aren't taken).
2. "The eRepublik community should be scolded for its childish attitude toward a hard-working Admin, but should not be blamed for the game mechanics."
As I said to another player: Devs have the responsibility for creating and implementing fun-based tools for the game, but to use them are Community role. Nobel paradox: he created dynamite for booster progress but then dynamite was used as war weapon. Shouldn't Armies to be blamed, hence, by such use?
Devs work had been deficient, but even the most perfect tool can be misused or used in a harmful way. Resuming: Take blame away from Community in her actions is just irresponsible.
3. Dictatorships.
Puting aside that numeral 2 also applies here and by lack of characters, I have only one question: Why aren't all the players playing inside that " very narrow band of optimized settings"?
4. "I would be pleased to call you "friend""
Same way here, and thank you very much.
So just a question here, you've given away millions to citizens and you do have some influence in the game itself but why don't you push to end the status quo over dead citizens being afforded those positions of power? Talking about it is one thing, but what is actually being done by 'power citizens' such as yourself to actually end the grip that these people that no longer play have over the Government?
Also, and because it looks like I'm way out of the loop but why do we have a 'VP for life'?
The VP thing is pretty much just a joke on me. VP is a completely worthless position. It is meaningless in form and function. If anything it has been a stupid political football in past years, awarded to a player as nothing more than a hope to gain the votes of the VP candidate's party for the CP candidate. So I'm not actually the VP for life, since anyone can appoint anyone else other than me, and making a big deal out of it is sort of a self-deprecating way of saying I'm not actually doing anything of real value in Government.
As far as ousting dead citizens who hold power, your challenge is solid. I will give it some thought.
I am giving it some thought also. It is something that make sense to me
One viable reason some were retained was for the passing of "institutional knowledge". The problem is a failure to recognize and remove those that have outstayed their usefulness in that capacity and permitting them to hang out because friends, despite bitterness towards the game or newer players with differing ideas.
My one and only caution in culling the departed is take care not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". I would initiate a conversation and find out exactly what their outlook is - determine if they'll pick up some slack and contribute in a beneficial way or if they're a lost cause.
in regard to the work tax i think it's imposible to have a comunist/sociasist system in a game that intends to mimic the real world and the fact that left wing politicians are adopting right wing economic policy is because socialist are socialist only on other ppl's money
As an effect from that, left wing parties weaken themselves by credibility lost in front of their electors.
what electors? 0.1-0.2% that vote based on ideology?
if you have companies like how 80% of erep citizens have would you like to be taxed for your money invested in them to build 100% tax rate just to support other lazy asses that could not bother themself to do the same? (that is socialism/comunism, it does not work without a wall to keep ppl in)
If bothers to you, that doesn't mean to disturb me.
Besides, in real world... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/does-the-left-have-a-future
While the right is more powerful than ever, the left is facing a crisis of credibility, precisely because they became the main supporters of the right. Hence, that only radicalized far-left parties.
The only diference between rL and eR is that even far-left parties was coopted by right parties.
the left lost credibility because instead of discussing and debating to keep in check equality vs productivity they self-appointed themselves as a moral police arrogantly believing that they somehow hold moral superiority over everyone else and any dissenting pov is wrong and evil
Social Justice Warriors certainly are a cultural problem nowadays, more when Left allows to guide his political agenda toward such topic and abandoning equity or help for the poors.
WAY BEYOND GAME MECHANICS INTO HUMAN BEHAVIOR
No one even mentions that this game has long been attractive to right wing nationalists of many nations to promote their version of their nation's fantasy dominance of those they disdain and feel superior over.
Over the years I have reported at least 100 incidents of seeing overt symbols of Terrorism, Nazism and Fascism is shouts and articles. IRC and now discord are filled with this crap as well.
Plenty of bullying going on as well. I was bullied within my former MU and no one cared.
Add this to the never ending objectification of women way past the fun antics of boys and you have a hostile brew of the worse of mankind right here in this little game.
This is completely on 'The Community' except when admin fails to act to correct this.
another interesting perspective
you make it sound like being right wing is the most horible thing in the world
To some it represents hatred and a way of life that is dying out. In either case I think it goes without saying that Terrorism, Nazism and Fascism are some of the most horrible things in the world.
what do you mean by ding out? from my point of view left wing politics is dying out that is why they import unskilled labor and puts them on wellfare.
also Terrorism, Nazism and Fascism is besides the point here it has little to nothing to do with what i said.
being right wing does not equal either of those in modern times if you didn't know....
"what do you mean by ding out" - I mean actually dying, most involved in this movement are older white men. Some say that the GOP is literally shrinking due to the natural deaths of their aged members.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With respect to the issues:
I do not think you are actually aware of facts. First of all, who are "they" who import unskilled labor and putting them on welfare? Clearly you do not have the facts when it comes to immigration or welfare. By a vast majority, the demographic group across the US who are beneficiaries of welfare are elderly, white, and female. Please get actual facts about immigration before making idiotic statements that deserve no response.
Just because you want to avoid discussing the deep relationship between the right wing in America and Terrorism, Nazism and Fascism doesn't make that relationship from not being real. In the US that relationship is direct and strong, if it offends you then do something about it, stand up against those who believe in these things.
Lastly, when it comes to this game I am really much more concerned by the extreme RL nationalism that European and Asians bring to the game. Most notably are the players who come from the Balkans and the many nations that surround them. Limited to just the game, we have a state imposed official religion in the eUSA. This may be a little bit crazy to the thinking of most Americans but is very much happening in the RL world.
-"Some say that the GOP is literally shrinking " -opinions are not facts also they always had an aged base
-"who are "they" who import unskilled labor and putting them on welfare? " left wing /far-left libertarians
-"Just because you want to avoid discussing the deep relationship between the right wing in America and Terrorism, Nazism and Fascism doesn't make that relationship from not being real." i was pointing out how you equate right-wing with those things just because you believe yourself to hold moral superiority (if we play by those rules socialism=comunism), witch sounds pretty arrogant and condescending imho
-the Balkans were always a powder barrel and from what i see the desperate attempts of russia to remain relevant and the migrant wave might be the spark
also state imposed religion is kind of against the religious freedom act imho it should not be there the state interference should be as low as possible into private citizen life