[TUP] Vote Pensive to Stop the PTO!
Day 936, 13:13
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Published in United Kingdom 
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by
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by Spite313
Dear Friends,
In the last few days we have seen the House of Commons and public discussion burning with argument. For the first time since the US invasion in January those forums have seen some real life. Whether you’re pro or anti-House of Lords, you have to recognise the retention value of having a decent argument that isn’t the usual drivel attempting to legislate fun.
We have seen cunning ploys, counter ploys. Darkmantle came up with at least three pretty impressive blocking methods, which extended argument. Jhorlin reproposed the Lords as “House of Dukes”, something which wouldn’t require a supermajority to pass. Attempted rule changes were proposed, pushed to vote, and thwarted. Dish proposed a final solution which seemed perfect but apparently wasn’t.
In amongst this mayhem tempers flared, insults were swapped. It was like the House of Commons at its most heated, back in the days where the HoC had power and legislation was king. Some people will curse those days, but me, I missed them. I won’t say I enjoyed this experience very much (even winning) because although being a part of it can be fun, being the general of the cause is nothing but hard work and hate-filled days.
Out of all that chaos one fact emerged. The House of Lords stands empty, and is un-amendable without a House supermajority of 66%. This effectively means that unless the President proposes candidates, and unless all five PPs agree, there is no House of Lords. For many, this is a victory for the democratically elected officials in the UK. For some, including the Lords who were removed, it represents a removing of a valued advisory capacity.
My views on this are well known- so I won’t bore you with them. Suffice to say that the concept of a house with the likes of Mr Woldy, Stefan1992, Bowen199, Steve Steinbeck, Darkmantle, John Forseti, Asher, Dan Moir, Pensive and so on needing advice from the likes of RRS, JvB and so on is ridiculous. Not only are many Lords out of touch, they’ve got less experience in their own right than the people they seek to advise. So it became nothing more than a self-selecting gentlemen’s club of unelected old guard. Good riddance
Out of this conflagration emerged a new problem however. And it wasn’t just my habit of having each paragraph begin in very similar ways. No, Jhorlin, current Chief of the military and long-time UKRP member and vice-party president, decided to PTO the Unity Party after his elected representatives in UKRP failed to block the HoL Act amendment from passing. He has stated that if elected he will hold onto the Presidency until TUP allows Lords into the House- which essentially means forever since in any case the CP and PCP have no reason to listen to him.
Jhorlin has since then raged frequently about the HoL Act, to the point when even the most rabid supporters of the HoL are looking on in dismay. His attempted PTO has run to the point where ads have appeared calling Pensive, the rightful candidate a PTOer. What is this silliness descending to? Jhorlin has also been accused by some of deleting MoD orders to try and push his article into the top 5. He has thus far denied such accusations.
Also alleged is the fact that despite the urgings of the PP and several senior members of the party to the contrary members of the UKRP are considering joining in Jhorlin’s domestic attack on TUP.
Is this the sort of behaviour TUP and PCP members of the armed forces expect from their Commander?
I think not.
Yet Jhorlin has considered nobody but himself in his crusade against TUP. Allegedly backed by the org banks of RoadRunnerSpeed (a lord and forum mod), he has pretended to be a legitimate candidate by posting manifestos in our media. This reflects badly on both Jhorlin and the military. After all, the army chief is supposed to be apolitical, not spending their time not only being involved in party politics but actually attempting to become PP of an opposing party to try and destroy them.
I urge all TUP members to vote Pensive on the 15th of June, and express your disgust at Jhorlin for this PTO attempt.
Iain Keers
TUP PP x 4
TUP MP x 10
Minister x 12
In the last few days we have seen the House of Commons and public discussion burning with argument. For the first time since the US invasion in January those forums have seen some real life. Whether you’re pro or anti-House of Lords, you have to recognise the retention value of having a decent argument that isn’t the usual drivel attempting to legislate fun.
We have seen cunning ploys, counter ploys. Darkmantle came up with at least three pretty impressive blocking methods, which extended argument. Jhorlin reproposed the Lords as “House of Dukes”, something which wouldn’t require a supermajority to pass. Attempted rule changes were proposed, pushed to vote, and thwarted. Dish proposed a final solution which seemed perfect but apparently wasn’t.
In amongst this mayhem tempers flared, insults were swapped. It was like the House of Commons at its most heated, back in the days where the HoC had power and legislation was king. Some people will curse those days, but me, I missed them. I won’t say I enjoyed this experience very much (even winning) because although being a part of it can be fun, being the general of the cause is nothing but hard work and hate-filled days.
Out of all that chaos one fact emerged. The House of Lords stands empty, and is un-amendable without a House supermajority of 66%. This effectively means that unless the President proposes candidates, and unless all five PPs agree, there is no House of Lords. For many, this is a victory for the democratically elected officials in the UK. For some, including the Lords who were removed, it represents a removing of a valued advisory capacity.
My views on this are well known- so I won’t bore you with them. Suffice to say that the concept of a house with the likes of Mr Woldy, Stefan1992, Bowen199, Steve Steinbeck, Darkmantle, John Forseti, Asher, Dan Moir, Pensive and so on needing advice from the likes of RRS, JvB and so on is ridiculous. Not only are many Lords out of touch, they’ve got less experience in their own right than the people they seek to advise. So it became nothing more than a self-selecting gentlemen’s club of unelected old guard. Good riddance
😛
Out of this conflagration emerged a new problem however. And it wasn’t just my habit of having each paragraph begin in very similar ways. No, Jhorlin, current Chief of the military and long-time UKRP member and vice-party president, decided to PTO the Unity Party after his elected representatives in UKRP failed to block the HoL Act amendment from passing. He has stated that if elected he will hold onto the Presidency until TUP allows Lords into the House- which essentially means forever since in any case the CP and PCP have no reason to listen to him.
Jhorlin has since then raged frequently about the HoL Act, to the point when even the most rabid supporters of the HoL are looking on in dismay. His attempted PTO has run to the point where ads have appeared calling Pensive, the rightful candidate a PTOer. What is this silliness descending to? Jhorlin has also been accused by some of deleting MoD orders to try and push his article into the top 5. He has thus far denied such accusations.
Also alleged is the fact that despite the urgings of the PP and several senior members of the party to the contrary members of the UKRP are considering joining in Jhorlin’s domestic attack on TUP.
Is this the sort of behaviour TUP and PCP members of the armed forces expect from their Commander?
I think not.
Yet Jhorlin has considered nobody but himself in his crusade against TUP. Allegedly backed by the org banks of RoadRunnerSpeed (a lord and forum mod), he has pretended to be a legitimate candidate by posting manifestos in our media. This reflects badly on both Jhorlin and the military. After all, the army chief is supposed to be apolitical, not spending their time not only being involved in party politics but actually attempting to become PP of an opposing party to try and destroy them.
I urge all TUP members to vote Pensive on the 15th of June, and express your disgust at Jhorlin for this PTO attempt.
Iain Keers
TUP PP x 4
TUP MP x 10
Minister x 12
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Comments
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Vote Pensive!!!
O.o and what's new?
voted
Vote Pensive!
'For many, this is a victory for the democratically elected officials in the UK.' You mean the mobile vote elected officials?
But on the other hand, yes, don't vote Jhorlin, he's in the wrong.
I express my disgust at Jhorlin for this PTO attempt. 😐
Vote Pensive!
I don't remember there being a rule that certain positions require the holder to have no political stance. So does the MoHA have to be 'neutral', do other commanders have to be 'neutral', other ministers too? And what about the President then?
Meh, Tom Morgan was outspokenly anti-BEP when he was in charge.
I'd say that Jhorlin should reconsider his behaviour.
BMA, while not specifically stated, it is frowned upon for military offcials to express political beliefs (with exceptions)
It is also common sense that this sort of behaviour cannot be allowed in military offcials - any person whose beliefs come into conflict with their job, let alone one as important as Jhorlins, ought to reconcile rapidly or resign.
Vote Pensive!
I hear from good sources that the UKRP are full of scoundrels these days....
It doesn't matter wether the CGS is involved in politics or not, the problem occurs when it affects the workings of the military, and thus far it hasnt to any noticable extent. The fact that Jhorlin has tried to PTO TUP has no bearing on his ability to command the military whatsoever.
He has also refused to work with the MoWar and is fighting running battles with Woldy's administration (admittedly this is from TUP press, so how true it is I'm not sure)
Whether or not they effect the military, you can't keep a person who takes this sort of action! He has lied and is abusing his prominent position. He must be removed from his post.
Jhorlin has done nothing to warrant being moved.
Iain is the one who undemocratically destroyed the lords, by amending it to a shell rather than repealing it.
He knew that he could not repeal it as it took 66% of votes, and so he went underhand.
66% repeal was itself an unprecedented and immoral move. So don't give me that Tomazim.
The whole point of the CDS position is that it is completely apolitical and impartial- that is why, unlike other positions, it's not appointed by the CP. However now Jhorlin is basically a biased and politically motivated dictator.
Ding Dong the Lords is dead.
"The whole point of the CDS position is that it is completely apolitical and impartial- that is why, unlike other positions, it's not appointed by the CP. However now Jhorlin is basically a biased and politically motivated dictator. "
The whole point of the CDS position is that it is a constant job that doesnt get replaced every month. Saying Jhorlin is a politically biased dictator is a utterly retarded and extreme statement to make, the fact that hes running for PP of TUP does not affect his military decisions in any way whatsoever.
And you watch them BURN!
Very very selfish Keers. Now you've had your fun, whats next on the list of things you're going to try and screw up?
The HoL has helped me a lot when I started in congress. At this moment V2 is comming at us fast and we can use al the advice we can get.
"Very very selfish Keers. Now you've had your fun, whats next on the list of things you're going to try and screw up?"
You mean like defending against PTOs?
"The HoL has helped me a lot when I started in congress. At this moment V2 is comming at us fast and we can use al the advice we can get."
I don't think the Lords necessarily have any more experience when it comes to V2 than anyone else does. Only 4 of them are active enough to vote against their own abolition so not a great loss.
Lords can contribute in public discussion. Big deal, it's not as if all the ex Lords are dead or anything.
Which is exactly why all this could have waited until AFTER V2. The timing of this couldn't have been worse, but I guess you might of needed people away for you to get this through.
I will remind you that this is a strategy game - your actions put Jhorlin in a crucible and prompted a response - selflessly he has put his head on the block to prove YOU DON'T GIVE A DAMN about the game as it is or will be, the country or it's most active players; you only care about your own petty agendas...at least in my opinion anyway. For him to put his head on the block shows a damn sight more courage than you lot have.
Jhorlin is Military, and just stomps on things; if you annoy military people for long enough for no good reason, then expect them to stomp. The fact you couldn't see the PTO attempt coming speaks volumes.
You know what really gets my goat? The "Politicians" against the HoL are supposed to have at least some skill in diplomacy, and have a measure of foresight. In this matter they have shown none of either quality.
Three weeks I've been here and all I've seen from the TUP is the politics of stoned petulant schoolchildren. Without doubt, the most epic fail I've ever seen in all my years on the internet.
Rednoahl. Just. No.
This has nothing to do with the HoL. Our democratically elected government is abolishing the House of Lords - and someone who is not really supposed to be involved in politics has taken an extreme and quasi illegal action to PTO a major, and currently the ruling, party!
This is not anyones fault but Jhorlins, and your personal opinions on the HoL have nothing to do with the issue.
Fortress doesn't allow for true democracy
Ireland is the place for wrong-doers 😃
or Moldova
No offence Rednoahl, but you've been playing what? 3 weeks?
I'm all for supporting new players. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But defending a domestic political take over is completely impossible. If this was TUP taking over UKRP so that you couldn't run candidates the entire of UKRP would have exactly the same reaction.
The simple fact is the TUP and PCP won the congress elections. The HoL being emptied has been a stated goal of both parties for over a year. So it's not a decietful action, it's what we promised to do and we did it.
Jhorlin's reaction was unprofessional and compromising to his position as an apolitical head of the armed forces. He deserves whatever comes to him- which in the short term will be a crushing defeat.
I'm not defending Jhorlin's actions - his actions in my opinion were wrong.
I'm mocking you for not expecting his reaction, and berating you for not having the patience to wait a while longer so that an amicable diplomatic solution could be found. If you've already waited a year, I don't think waiting a few more weeks would have made any difference.
I'm sorry Rednoahl- when PTOing the party which beat you becomes an expected result of a person losing a HoC vote then something has gone sadly wrong.
I think you're just talking without knowing the full background of the HoL thing. This isn't the first time we've tried to compromise. This is the 20th time. This has happened every month, and every time we've tried to compromise we've ended up getting a hard time. Now this time we decided to just do it, and then we can argue from a position of a blank slate. We're not trying to make the ruins of the Lords work, we can work on an entirely new system without all the problems and cronyisms the Lords had.
If you had any idea the amount of work TUP put into elections and maintaining our position you wouldn't think this was a casually won victory. We fought hard for it, for months, and I think now with the House of Commons Act passing we may finally have succeeded in finding a compromise we can be happy with. But it took the threat and actuality of what we did to put that on the table.
Anyway, PTOing TUP is going to take a lot of effort 😉
Oh so you can PTO SDP then and that's alright. I see....