Thoughts on the Treaty
Aries Prime
There has been some discussion of the treaty with Hungary, but little has been stated by and of the current or previous governments about why we actually have a treaty. Some say for regions while others say for political maneuvering. I’m going to discuss some of my own thoughts on the treaty and the blatant lack of transparency from the government on this issue. (If you are from abroad, skip to the "My Thoughts" section)
The Government Response
Execution of the NAP
Above is a link to the congress debate on the current treaty. Because the exact statements of members are reserved to NL citizens only, I urge you all to check it out.
First the government constantly dodges any direct response to my inquires. When I ask about the reasoning behind the treaty, it is suggested by a non-government player that it is possibly due to the strength of Hungary and our seeming inability to stop them. Next, I am told that the true reasons for the treaty are classified, again by a non-government player. It takes several days for a government member to respond and the response is this: I am told Hungary gets to keep two regions because they feel life it and I should be happy.
Well, that’s interesting. Hungary gets two regions because our government said so and I have to just deal with it? Flash-forward another few hours and I finally receive a response about some vague plan that we are pushing for a third region but Hungary requires an outpost in Netherlands and we are just going to let them do so because we don’t want to fight them.
Out of these vague responses I gathered this: 1. Our government is too afraid to challenge Hungary for our regions, whether it be through negotiation or resistance. 2. If there is some kind of plan in motion, it is hardly well planned and we are supposed to just hope as citizens that things fall into place. 3. Any notion of transparency or actual stance by our government on this issue is null. They are too afraid to step up and give us a real reason for the treaty, instead telling us to deal with it.
My Thoughts on the Treaty
To me it is instantly clear that we are too scared to challenge Hungary in any sense of the word. We are too afraid to speak up at the negotiation table, too afraid to garner support for a resistance war, too afraid to stand up for ourselves.
Of course, why shouldn’t we be afraid to stand up for ourselves? No government in many months has managed to gather real allies for Netherlands, allies that will actually fight for us and care about our freedom. In fact, the last time we even had allies fighting for us and supporting us was during our wars with Norway, primarily under NoTie112’s two CP terms, all under the North Sea Protection Pact. This alliance between the UK, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, and Denmark quickly fell apart after our wars with Norway ended, and it was largely serving the purposes of UK and Germany for protection against Asgard. Even after Poland was forcibly removed by Serbia, Hungary quickly swooped in and any allies we seemed to have appeared to turn their backs on us. It’s sad to say that we don’t have any real allies.
Now perhaps our allies never helped us because we simply laid down all arms when Hungary invaded, showing them that we were a lost cause. Or perhaps they really did turn their backs on us because they cared nothing for us. I can’t say at this time. All I can say now is that we are very much alone.
This brings us back to the purpose of the treaty. What exactly is it? This treaty is our way of attempting to play both sides of the coin. It is no wonder no one cares about us. We attempt to cater to Hungary while being friendly to “allies” who don’t appear to care what happens to us one way or another. At the end of the day all we are doing is losing all allies we once had while being occupied by a stronger force that appears to have no intention of ever leaving.
The only way to combat this downward spiral is to pick a side and stick with it. But we can’t just pick any side. We need to pick a side where loyalty actually matters. We need a side where we will fight for our allies, even if that means we are occupied from time to time, and in return they fight for us when we most need it. We haven’t had allies like that in years. There are a few paths we can take to achieve this goal, but for now I’ll let you all mull over the idea.
Aries Prime
Comments
Wise words. We certainly (seem) to lack vision and just live day-by-day clinging to a shaky agreement and unknown (to many of us anyway) allies.
Oh man, how long have we known eachother. NL has fucking infrared supersonic nightvision based on unanimous agreement.
v+s
Vot....oh wait...NL....alright, voted.
>This alliance between the UK, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, and Denmark quickly feel apart after our wars with Norway ended, and it was largely serving the purposes of UK and Germany for protection against Asgard.
http://abload.de/img/14222256739802bi8z.jpg
In what sense am I incorrect? Not once was Netherlands threatened by Asgard until AFTER we engaged in war to help both UK and Germany fight Norway and Sweden. After which we reverted back into slavery from Poland, and later from Hungary.
1. The NSPP has never been an alliance - but always a defense pact. That has been made clear several times. There were considerations to turn it into an alliance after Sirius and Aurora fell apart, but that idea was rejected.
2. Claiming the NSPP's main purpose was to protect the UK and Germany from Asgard is ridiculous. Also nice how you leave the fact aside that Belgium sought NSPP's help to get them wiped when they were under PTO threat and Poland couldn't take care of that.
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Main issue in NSPP was that NL/DE wanted to build on common sense and that BE/UK wanted more rules than your grandmother has and put them all in official documents and shit. I agree with n0s3 mostly, NSPP has been broader than how you sketch it, even though it was pretty worthless, especially with the forced joint strike stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I like Germany. We are both slaves to other countries and have been for years. Still, NSPP never actually benefited us while it appears to have only helped you and UK. Maybe I am wrong, but Netherlands has been left in the dark for a long, long time, and that is a fact.
All I can say the NSPP was a fun and loose experiment without any obligations or loyalties (sadly) and was doomed to fail from the beginning seeing there were two very different and incomparable approaches to it in the different countries.
Personally I think it advantaged all countries at least once in it's existence, however it were small benefits fitting for the small impact/relevance the past had.
^ * ''fitting for the small impact/relevance the pact had.''
Peeps, let's not forget that this n0s3 guy was the one that tried to screw us over when we had our very first AS, yes the one on Canada, where it had CO's against us. Need I say more??
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Sometimes any countries really deserves some COs to be set against it. Especially with people like van Spijck at the helm for example.
And jumping on the train, when Germany and UK destroyed Asgard was hardly a helping hand but merely serving your own interests.
And still the AS was a complete succes. 😉
My thoughts on the treaty:
They don't call me erep's Nostradamus for nothing, sit still and trust in Garmr. Why would we want to make enemies of the Hungarians if we can reach our goals through friendship as well. Think of the long term, not just about today and tomorrow.
"In fact, the last time we even had allies fighting for us and supporting us was during our wars with Norway"
I sent support from the USA. Partially credit to you for hooking up with them Black Sheeps.
I agree on being alone, it's all about 'what have you done for me lately' in global politics. Being alone is exactly why we shouldn't even bother with direct wars or aggressive resistance. Understand how the water flows and move with it.
Black Sheep are legit. Love those guys.
If they would only stop crying about the work tax... other than that I like them.
My economics says work tax is too damn high!
Those black sheep received money for it, so no honour in that.
Didn't even know that. Thought only a certain inhabitant of Norway hired his 'friends' for exorbitant amounts of money, lol.
yeah, but that was for a war between eUK and eBE. To make a war with eNL even possible
Sadly the Netherlands will be slave to geopolitics forever, unless that is you have a baby boom. Until then, treaty's such as this, whether it is with Hungary or Poland or the next big guy on the block will always be necessary.
Yet Norway remains relatively free from giants? I refuse to believe Netherlands will always be a slave.
Norway has quite the extraordinary foreign policy which is obviously unmatched by other smaller nations. Our key to success also relies on the facts of who our neighbours are. Sweden (ally) Finland (ally) Russia (ally) Hungary (ally) UK (new friend)
Nobody that borders us, wants to invade us. The Netherlands is not as fortunate in that scenario however which is why treaty's like this will always matter.
Joshubra iz u challenging my foreign policy? 🙁
You guys got screwed pretty decently from time to time as well, but luckily UK already had oil and we were the closer oil stop for every other country.
Nah, we don't have any useful resources anymore. We're slowly making progress towards a peaceful permanent freedom.
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Interesting article and it's nice to be able to see your point of view on this issue. I do have some questions and remarks after reading it. 🙂
1. The NSPP didn't benefit us at all? o.O Honestly, that's news to me. Umm, I would say that we were able to have a real war and occupy another country, twice, with the help from those allies in the NSPP so I don't really see it as being such an abject failure as has been implied. It was never meant to be an official alliance and, sure, it wasn't perfect but the relations between the member nations improved dramatically over that time and I don't believe we were really in a bad position geopolitically. 🙂
2. Why couldn't Germany and our other NSPP allies help us when Hungary invaded? Unfortunately, Hungary and Serbia swooped in and took Germany first if you remember, and the Germans arranged a treaty with them and they were not permitted to fight against either power. UK was in a war on their own soil and Belgium is far too small, even if both our countries combined we would have been no match for Hungary. After the treaty between Germany and while UK was busy with their own war is when Hungary came for us and we did the same as the Germans and signed a treaty.
3. Also, the reason for the treaty was argued by the government already so for those citizens who were paying attention, the reasons for the treaty were presented already by the government to the Congress and the treaty was approved last month on 13 January. How is this government not transparent when the discussion about the treaty already took place in the public debate section and there were well over ninety posts in that topic?
4. And if you don't know the plan that is in motion, then how can you truly know that it is not well-planned? Otherwise, it is all speculation on your part.
1. Are we not still slaves with no one to help us? Sure, we got a fun war and some territories from Norway, yet at the end of the day we are still alone and occupied.
2. We have/had more allies then just NSPP, or so we were supposed to. I can't say who is at fault there, because it could just as easily be our hopeless attitude of laying down arms at a moments notice that made people ignore us. I don't even blame them.
3. Reasons for the treaty being? Let's be slaves to Hungary because we have no allies and refuse to stand up for ourselves? We dug this hole for ourselves and we need to dig out or we really will be forever screwed as Josh suggests.
4. I know exactly what the possible plans are, but I'm not going to betray my country and spout them all out here in the public. And yes, if they were well planned we would know better.
1. So you agree that NSPP did benefit our country then despite having said above that it didn't benefit us "at all". 😛 And I haven't been forced into working all my life without any pay for any Hungarians thus far, so I don't see how it is appropriate to say we are "slaves". It's inaccurate in my opinion. At the end of the day, Germany, a country that does on average 4 times more damage than us, is occupied as well. But, nevertheless, with the recent resource war results, I believe that Hungary will be leaving us eventually. The government is working to get all four regions ASAP but, honestly, it appears to me that some people seem keen on ignoring that to score political points. :/
2. OK we had a couple more allies. Let's start with the USA. You expect that they were supposed to war Hungary and Serbia all on their own to try to prevent them from conquering our mere four regions in western Europe? Asteria was dominating nearly ALL of Europe. :/ It would have been foolish for the USA on their part to have done such a thing. Sirius/pro-Sirius had totally collapsed already and Pacifica was not yet prepared to take on Asteria/LETO all by themselves. Poland was occupied themselves and signed a treaty and Chile was more than busy and had been kicked from Europe, so you expect that they were supposed to launch an airstrike to attempt to save us when Germany and all these other nations were signing treaties left and right? 😛
3. Why don't you go look at the debate and you will see what Garmr's government said? You claimed it was not public and the government has not been transparent yet I was simply informing you that there indeed was a public debate about the treaty with a significant amount of discussion in the topic between the government, the Congress, and citizens. 🙂
4. Exactly. 🙂 So it is speculation because you say you know what the "possible" plans are, not necessarily the plan the government has.
Okay lol: Out of these vague responses I gathered this:
1. Our government is too afraid to challenge Hungary for our regions, whether it be through negotiation or resistance.
Indeed, we are a bunch of little childeren. The only thing we like is s***k Hungarian d***s.
2. If there is some kind of plan in motion, it is hardly well planned and we are supposed to just hope as citizens that things fall into place.
Indeed. If we had a plan you would know it, I would know it too. I can give you information, but you wont get far with it because it isnt complete.
3. Any notion of transparency or actual stance by our government on this issue is null.
What else do you want to know? The treaty is just everything we know too, 8 simple lines. Not more, no less. Easy right?
It really is that simple:
"We need to pick a side where loyalty actually matters. "
This side should first and foremost be our own soil. If you invade us, you should meet fierce resitance, not a government that hands over 75% of it leaving later governments to do damage control.
Meeting fierce resistance does not mean we should count on a win, or think we can. Its about something deeping, its about showing that we give a damn and are willing to fight for it.
After we gave it everything we have, we can always consider other options. Other options should not be the first response.
support ReL
And I think that is the big difference with I&W, you just want to fight no matter what and protect our soil even if we lose and then see if there are other option.
I&W has a more common sense approach of picking out battles, there is no use fighting if we can't win and then rather find a diplomatic solution like we did with Hungary. We got a treaty by being diplomatic if you first fight and then want to find a solution there is a huge chance the other side isn't willing anymore
Either way, this isn't permanent like with Poland, Hungarians will leave
Well this is clearly where our views diverge. When I&W sold us out to Hungary no thorough analysis was done or made public about alternatives. Fighting, gathering support, paying them off, even considering losing a war were not considered. In fact, when Hungary only pointed a finger at us, your president made us go belly up and ask for a cookie. All under the eufemism called 'politics'. When the treaty was not in place, orders were already given NOT to fight, sincery diminishing our chances for a better result. Slashing our chances for a bit of patriottism and gaming fun.
Now, going belly up is an option when we face a much stronger ally, like with Poland, after some time. Altho GIVING 75% of our soil to a hostile nation that snaps its fingers, without consulting Congress, is a no-go for us.
I guess we see what we can expect should you be elected. Perhaps you are already on tour to our neighbors or far away enemies if they can use a few extra regions. Because hey, we can still keep one.
But lose our dignity in the process.
I just want fighting, no matter what? No you are wrong about that. In fact I was in countless governments when fighting Poland AND in governments when we made an understanding with them. A person, a nation still has to stay practical.
When Hungary will leave Poland will come back Fhaemita, dont be so sure about freedom 😉
We don't have resources that Poland needs anymore so 🙂
being in small opposite alliance is enough.
We're cursed
Why do you think they make it classified information? if there is a plan for getting all four regions back, and they would make it public, Hungary would know it too. And I think that if our governments has a plan, that it wouldn't help a lot if hungary knows about it too 🙂
That's the problem, I don't think they really have a plan or a good plan at that. We have seen they are just willing to lay down arms at any invader and give up instantly while any allies we had ignore us, so how could there possibly be a good plan in the works?
that is exactly the point about classified information, it's classified. 😛 maybe we just have to wait a little more to see what will happen.
Good initiative, helped me to grasp the context of the Hungarian presence in the Netherlands - as well as arguments both for and against the treaty. Thanks!
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