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I'm not saying it hasn't been beneficial and I know it has merits, but there must be another way. Such as giving Romania PEI and Serbia Yukon.

National Pride has no price in my eyes, but I'm willing to at least concede a bit. More whole than now is better than not whole at all. The return of Quebec, New Brunswick, The NWT and Nunavut would appease me more than enough.

The only issue with that is that it opens up numerous regions where they wouldn't have a border with an agressor which makes the protection aspect lesser. While I understand the desire to be one whole country, I personally believe that the arrangement we have now is worth not having the whole country.

You really can get far with national pride in this game. It's the primary driver of many countries, even Canada to a large extent. But for smaller countries like ours you eventually run into the wall that is game mechanics and you have to make a decision: do I compromise on x (usually territorial integrity, like in our case) for the sake of being able to continue to have a functioning society, government and (though possibly stunted) economy in the face of insurmountable game mechanics (rea😛 a bigger country we have no hope of ever beating)?

We aren't the first to face these questions. We've been wiped and perma-wiped and it did take it's toll on the community (the total extent is unknown as the game itself was in a general decline, too). The alternative we have now is, undoubtedly, the best arrangement possible for us and probably any country out there (I say that only because I have no idea about foreign affairs anymore but I seriously doubt there's a better arrangement anywhere).

Mann's already explained it - we're safe! We have, at the stroke of a pen, not only ensured that we have a Congress every month but that we are, in fact, safe from any actual threat of invasion, which, let's face it, we would lose. Not only that, but we it puts us in a better economic situation not only through rent but by being able to place our enterprises in Canadian territories connected to capitals of countries with better overall economic resources.

Sure, some of our territories appear on the map to be occupied but they truly are rented. Occupation is by an enemy - Serbia and Romania are our allies and because of us they and our alliance as a whole are able to enjoy some of the best economic conditions in the game.

I think the best way to look at it is the reverse. Would we be in a better position if Romania and Serbia left? Economically, no (and that's assuming no enemy occupation) - we'd lose rent money and our companies would be less productive. Militarily, not at all. Not only would PEI be occupied in a heartbeat but there's no telling what other territories would fall when our allies aren't around to protect us. A long-term or even a perma-wipe would be plausible bordering on probable as other countries would swoop in to try to carve Canada up simply because they could.

So is it worth giving what we have up for the hope that we might be able to hold onto our 13 territories? I'm clearly on the no side.

Caveat: if we land some whales the size of Wales, I'd be willing to consider asking RoSe to leave. But I don't see the need to ask them to leave just because a millionaire might be able to win us some battles.

When I left this game, we hand incredible difficulties remaining on the map. It is very difficult to maintain national pride when you have nothing to stand on. No regions means no congress and no economy.

It sounds like some real progress was made to play this game "like a game" and not let RL national pride get in the way, albeit there are still some pieces of ground in-game to exercise your RL national pride.

I like the work that has been done and appreciate the efforts of the community that made this happen.

I totally respect and appreciate the efforts made by the community to have this happen. I'm not trying to negate that fact. Canada would probably not be around if not for this arrangement I'm sure.

If they have Nova Scotia or New Brunswick alone it would be more than enough. We can also setup the agreement stating that we just let Serbia and Romania take our lands to make connections if attacked. Were one of the very few countries that have done this that I know of or have seen.

You know, I thought that at first as well, too, but logistically it's simply not enough for them to hold onto only one or two territories. It's rare these days but every so often Serbia and Romania get into real wars. Eventually that would mean that they would either a) have to devote resources to ensure that no RW (or two, should the first succeed) started by our enemies as a diversion succeeds or b) might not be able to anyways because they are busy fighting elsewhere and/or made the decision not to fight against the RW.

While we can NE Romania to start a reset war in order to give them PEI are back in the event of a successful RW, those votes take time and if the second battle is lost before we can attack, there goes that reset.

On the other hand, renting Romania (and Serbia) additional territories not only means that we will have enough time but it's clear enough that it gives us enough time to prevent them from leaving our borders that it effectively neuters the strategy of launching such an attack. Why would our enemies waste their money on a potential diversion if they both know it won't divert our attention away from a real fight and will ultimately be reverted within a few short days? Answer: they won't.

There's a balance that can be enacted. Yes only giving them PEI and Yukon can undermine some of the defensive capabilities of the current agreement, but that is such a small problem that can be easily fixed, and is at minimum a delayed action vs direct. We would still be keeping RoSe in our lands, just not spread throughout half of it. If we get attacked and lose a few territories, it won't matter when the territories that RoSe have finally connect.

In the arguement that if they get into a real war that they would not be able to fight against the RW, that's our responsibility to ensure that that RW fails, calling our on Allies to assist if necessary. Lazy solutions aren't always the best solutions. I understand the mechanically thought out idea of the current agreement, however there are other ways to deter, and to set it up that allows us to feel like we have a country, benefit from our own resources, but still have the protection we have now, albeit one that would have delay.

If RoSe gets into a real war, it won't matter if they control 1, or 3 territories each if they can't commit to stopping what you're suggesting now.

It's the simplest solution, not the laziest. Other than supposed national pride, there is no benefit to making ourselves more vulnerable. For minimally more territories rented - which again, has no adverse economic impact on us - we ensure the perpetual continuation of our rental agreements and assured protection from invasion. It is the most elegant solution available while anything less puts us at risk (which, I might add, our allies might not be willing to tolerate).

I don't think you're properly assessing how vulnerable we would be if we only rented one territory to each of them and overestimating how difficult it would otherwise be to protect those territories from an RW. Keep in mind that we share the same allies.

I'm also not sure if you get the strategy/game mechanic implications, either. Holding three territories makes a world of difference over one. If it's just one territory it has to be defended every time someone RW's it. Every single time. It's just too costly both in short term economic loses, medium term air strike costs, and opportunity cost while this takes place. But the long-term strategic loss is the most important as we lose flexibility in a war. With three territories, we'll have three opportunities to choose when we make a stand in Canada rather than in another battle after which our reset war will be well underway.

How can you defend the indefensible?!?!?

No, wait, sorry. I meant why are defending something that nobody's attacked? Honestly, before I ready Derakor's comment, I've only seen just a few newbs surprised by it and most of them just need to be told once.

Maybe I'm missing the "quite a few people" you've seen but I really don't think there's much concern about this strategic and lucrative policy.

But hey, you've already spent the time writing this so who am I to complain? Good article!

Perhaps I have exaggerated the number of people that have commented on it by mistake, since I normally have conversations about it with a select few quite a bit. Nevertheless, it is an issue that arises and something I had to sort out when I returned to the game. I figured that this article would help clarify why the rental agreements as they are can be a good thing and hopefully also to give a more concrete reason as to why we have RoSe (Romania/Serbia) as protection by using the US Natural Enemy on Ireland as an example.

As far as I'm concerned eCanada won this game with these deals.

Maybe not the whole game but the game for the strength of league we play in.

Im obviously not new and ive questioned the deal. It seemed like they forced our hand following an all out wipe by our tenants. So, understandibly, one might wonder if we actually invited our new friends to move in or if they told us. Rent is expensive but so is war, some might get the idea that this rental deal is just a former of peaceful occupation. However, I no longer feel that way because I know that our tenants would leave if we asked them to, right? Same as if they decide to stop paying. Bam, out the door.

Serbia and Romania never occupied us. This is not a peace settlement where they agreed to give up some of the territory they occupied so long as we didn't fight over what they kept for themselves. We've seen that elsewhere in the game but not this time.

Man, I was just being me. I don't mind Serbia being here. Ambivalent about Romania. I was clearly misunderstanding as I could have sworn there was a time when our entire country was painted with Serb and Romulan colors. Either way, I think it's nice to have our own personal bodyguards who pay us for the right to take a bullet for us should anyone else try to cohabitate additional provinces with us. It's all good. No dissent. No need for further discord.

To my knowledge RoSe have cooperated with Canada at every turn. Even when Serbia elected some who did some funky stuff the general population fought against orders to do the right thing. They've never neglected to pay the rent. It's just a business deal to them and evidently business is good. They get a ton of benefits in way of production and we get tons of benefits with powerful friends that treat us with respect.

I was not aware there was any serious dissent. What intelligent person would prefer a permanent wipe.

They have 3 regions each for defense. If they only had one territory each, all an enemy would have to do is win 1 RW and they would be gone, and we would all be screwed. It would cost a fortune for either of them to Airs Strike back just because someone wants to see more red on a map? What game mechanic would be enhanced if we had more territories? 4 is the only number that matters.


Plan has always been this.

If either loose or appear to be loosing an RW, we NE them immediately which that takes 24 hours. They could loose a the 2nd region to RW in that 24 hours but not possible to loose the 3rd.

Now we have an open war and Romania or Serbia can reestablish or go after any enemy that has landed.

Look at map to understand why they control Nunavut and Quebec. It is a wall. No enemy can get to our main cores without going through Serbia and Romania.

Also this gives Serbia and Romania a border so no one can try to take on one at a time. If you come to Canada you have to fight both Serbia and Romania.

Also remember your history. Serbia came to free us from Albania. We wanted them to stay for a few months for protection. Then the event happened by coincidence.

They used thier power to get us these resources. We would of ended up with a bunch of stinky fish without them fighting for us.

I knew when we decided to go for the best resources that we would be entering into a marriage with Serbia. Other small countries deliberately took only the stinky fish so they would not be a target. We now have the resources and the power to protect them.

Our cores are the most protected in the game.

National Pride is what keeps people around, just as much as good agreements. Now what you Pro-Agreement people think is that eCanada is going to continue to be dead (because you don't seem to care to try due to burnout) and you have no faith in our Allies or RoSe being able to defend. If the situation really comes about that RoSe can't defend the territories they currently hold, the number will mean nothing.

The main reason I suggested PEI, and Yukon/NWT, is that the enemy, as far as I understand it, would have to not only declare war, but have to go through our territory in order to get to wherever, RW that place, or do an Air Campaign, all of which take time, money, and resources.

The plan I'm suggesting offers the best of 2 worlds. Yes it's a little more risky, but fortune favours the bold, and if we want people to come alive, or join eCanada, we need something. Any threat from eUSA can be countered with smart agreements, alliances, and it's use to promote activity.

You know what is real burn out? It is living through months and months of a wipe with no elections. People just leave and never come back. You don't have a clue what real burn out is.

Do you know about the determination bonus? The longer they hold our territory the bigger the bonus for Canada in a RW. In 60 days and this bonus is 200%. They need 3 territories each to protect against a RW push.

Name one game mechanic that is enhanced by us holding more territories? "Looks?" who the hell spends time looking at that stupid map and being upset about the colouring.

Some of us. And I do know what Burn Out is. I experienced a wipe way back before I left. That's not the point. No I did not know about the determination bonus, however you're making it sound like if we modify the agreement in any way we'll get instant wiped. I'm less interested in mechanics because if you only focus on game mechanics in games they get boring and die. At least that's been my experience, however they also die in a wipe which is why I have stated to not totally remove RoSe from our lands completely but a modification.

Fear is the mind killer, and the fear of a wipe is restricting us, hiding behind the excuses of mechanics. Where's our MoFA initiative to try to appease or curb US aggression? Where's our attempts to bolster and build up our MUs or even think about uniting in fewer MUs?

I'm an idealist, granted, but ideals breed hope and movement. Call me ignorant, which there are things I am about this game I'll admit, but I have people like you ED to educate me. However, regardless the odds, I'll try to make eCanada great and return our lands without the need for these kinds of agreements.

Where is my one game mechanic that would be enhanced by having more territories? Honestly Serbia had Newfoundland and it took over a month for even one person here to notice including me.

That is because it does not change one single thing about playing the game. Not one thing. And besides you apparently, people don't stare at the map of Canada and worry about the colouring.

Yes I do, because we should be looking at it. You may be content with how the mechanics work and who cares about the rest, but I want more from this game. Mechanics are boring, and offer little just like you said. You can attack me for my view all you want, and attack the idea of caring for a map painted Canadian even if there's no mechanical basis, but there is a pride basis that keeps people feeling like we're doing something and maintaining what is indeed our heritage in game.

Anyways, I'm done arguing about it. You have your view, I will maintain mine. I will agree to disagree with you.

National Pride may keep people around, being wiped pushes people away. I'd rather have a semblance of Canada in eCan than nothing at all. Canadian Pride is not greater than eCanadian Game Mechanics and Politics

I disagree, but I digress. The meta game is what makes the game. 🙂 Still I understand your positions.

smelly fish? No that's just Quebec and Montreal you smell.

As long as it is not that girl you ordered up the other night

What can you expect when he gets a free hooker thrown in by his dealer for all the blow he's been buying? They're not great prizes at the bottom of the Cracker Jack box either.

The Deal is obviously our lifeline and as such it should be kept at any cost.

But on the other side, we're bored. Load up that AS and let's go on an adventure.

^Agreed. Entertainment is lacking in this government.

The deal is our lifeline, but it needs to be modified in my opinion. Which is what I'm getting at. It's not that I have a problem with them having a few of our territories, however right now it looks more like we are a broken, vassal, then an independent nation. New players will see that and say "Peace Out".

This plan I'm suggesting offers a little risk, but still the maintenance of the agreement.

New players aren't leaving this game just because of the rental agreement. It's a shitty game to be a new player in.

If it ain't broke...

Lol Addy, not saying it's broke.

...I'm saying don't try to fix it.

I take this as a desire to fight for what is Canada's. TBH I'd love a big knock down, drag out fight. We've come out on top before several times. Question is, could we do it again. I don't claim to be an expert in anything but talking a lot and mashing the big red button. However I do have some, in my opinion, valid points.

1. While I might be in on paying $100-200 to fight once in awhile it's not likely to tempt me into parting with several hundreds again. The game is just not that much fun anylonger. Nor do i think many old tanks would either. When you have a dozen in D4 going up against 20-30 really heavy hitters that don't mind spending real money just to win pixels it gets f'ing expensive.

2. It takes more than D4 to win. Not to hurt anyone's feelings but we suck in lower divisions. Our potential enemies have real MUs that have organized and fully supplied their people. They also just plain have more D1-2-3 to throw at us.

3. I've said this before in other countries, put up or shut up. It's easy to write a couple articles and rabble rouse. How bout begining to donate the billions (yes, I said billions) of cc we'll need for CO and mercenaries. Also the food and Q7 to have supplies for our people and allies will need stockpiled and volunteers to distribute organized ahead of time. Plus many other things that need prepared before an all out war.

The people talking about this have not been involved in anything big. Someone in D2 that can squirt out 750k one time and then take a day and a half to recharge ain't going to cut it. It takes Strength, EBs and organization in all divisions to have a chance. Then there is the little issue of sheer numbers, that's why we need friends with big MUs and cc to buy mercenary support.

I guess I need to see some proof that Canada could actually win. Then that would just be the first attack. They would not stop with one. Let's see some evidence from our "educated" folk, don't talk, show me. (FWIW, I'm from Missouri in real life. That's our State motto, "Show me".)

There's a reason I proposed the Food program, and have a Weapons Program proposal in my Google Docs, because we need organization and programs like that to do anything. I've been part of Big things before back in the 1,000-1,500 days of eRepublik. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, and it's not without risk, but the current status quo isn't cutting it either, in my humble opinion.

I was not playing then but I'm not a nooblet either. If my history recall is off someone please correct me as the old melon ain't what she used to be.

My first experience with international crap (way different than congress / party bickering BTW) was in the US. I did negotiate indepently of official govt with INCI to help regain normalcy when the US had a possible PTO for real. Turk youngsters flooded the US with new players (legitimate, not multies) from a Turkish gaming forum. When a few of their members were insulted trying to play eRep. I learned a lot about diplomacy with other cultures.

Then, while CP of Switzerland, I negotiated a Non Aggression Pact with Slovenia. I was friends with Howly and SmoothZiga
http://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/List_of_presidents_of_Slovenia
before I moved to Switzerland. The Swiss were Slovenia's chew toy and were regularly wiped. First I negotiated to have a congress then the NAP. Howly pushed through the vote on his end with heavy opposition. The deal fell through when genius kiddies new to Switzerland pushed for war instead. The same rethoic I hear again got them wiped for good.

Came to Canada the first time with most all my MU intact (about 20). Got immediately put to wor in Foreign Affairs. While CP I got us wiped while pissing around with FYROM and Albania. The US decided to invade. We drove them sons of bitches out. We didn't win the war, we simply were out matched. People said i was crazy but they stuck with my plan. We simply made war with Canada too damn expensive and inconvenient. Any time their alliance needed help we distracted with a major offensive. My proudest moment was negotiating peace. My terms? GTFO and stay out. As soon as they left we MPPed Serbia! 😃

Moving on to Australia, while CP there I got to talking with Chile. YosemiteSam became a good friend. Chile was a long time wiper of Aussies (along with Indo) but that got boring. Peru decided to wipe Australia I smoosed Chile into siding with us. Good times had by all. Then the floor fell out with the few, good, active players moving away

I moved to Ireland for a short time but that wasn't any fun so back I came to Canda. In eRep I consider this my home. 🙂

Sorry to rattle on but I want to make damn sure everyone knows I'm not just blowin' smoke out my ass. I love the idea of food and weapon supply. Hell, get the keys for the Canadian MU (whatever it is now) train some noobs. I tried one last time recently to do exactly what you're doing. I quit trying when I became Don Quixote of Canucks. I'll help anyone that wants to try but I've got too many boot prints on my ass. I'm not funning, what I said above about not being able to pull off what is being proposed. So make provisions and do it. I'll even help with strategy. But until I see the conditions I stated met I highly recommend you reconsider.

I'm not sure what your point was but I can applaud your achievements as more than my own.im doing what I can with what I got and what I'm authorized to do.

My point was that, referring to my first post, I am not just talking to hear my head rattle. I've negotiated to achieve goals for my various countries. I've also fought my ass off. I've prepared countries for war and lead them, with much help from some great people.

When I say that what you propose would be expensive and take much planning I ain't kidding.

oh this is so dumb. Im getting very tired or reading garbage like this.

its so fucking simple> WE CANT HOLD CANADA ALONE! Done end of conversation.

You're right, we can't hold Canada alone, but there are alternative agreements and setups that can be done, even if it is less logical mechanically. However, I will always agree, logically mechanically this current setup makes a ton of sense.

"there are alternative agreements and setups that can be done, even if it is less logical mechanically"

I'm bored with the responses such as this. There is always "someway", "someone" needs to do "something", we can do this "somehow".

Derakor, I applaud you persistence and enthusiasm. Please do some leg work to come up with something doable. If Canada is on fire don't talk about putting it out, grab a bucket. Thanks!

I'm sorry, I thought I was grabbing a bucket by trying to talk about it, and even by doing some leg work with a proposed idea. However I work off Givernment, the institution I respect to represent the people and to do the job. As a congressman it is my duty to talk about these things, and attention to get the government to HELP them be achieved. I won't betray my Government even if I disagree with them by making backroom deals, if that's what you mean by legwork. If ED authorizes me to act as MoFA, I'll get to work, until then I will speak, as is proper in a democracy.

If it makes a ton of sense, why tinker with it?

No backroom deals. I'm not even sure how a backroom deal would promote beefing up our battle readiness or stockpile weapons, food or cc.

You are in the govt group PM as well as congress group PM. I fail to see how MoFA position would help. FA is not for new policy but to do the legwork of the CP if he/she changes something. FA is more PR work than anything. Make people do what they really dont want to do, then make them think it was their idea to do it and happy they did it. 😃

If your intention is to change policy the position you want is CP. Problem with that is you get all the responsibility also with power to do. Its not as much fun as one would think. Now's a good time to try out the chair.

If you persist in the belief that talk will change anything then I should give up. My words are not having an effect. If you want to do something I'll have your back. If you want to talk about doing something I'll let you take the stage

CP should not be the only position to change policy, at least in a meta game sense. Addy, conversations like this breed certainty in the current setup, and can breed new ideas. If all we do is just accept, but do not inquire, that makes up for a sorry state of things.

I'm here to talk, because talking is the first step towards action, and action must take place in a majority setting, and with the consent of those Congressmen who have the votes. Parliament in RL works off of a LOT of talk before action, so I'm sorry if it seems like all I'm doing is talking, but that talking is doing something for Canada, and this game, for me and others.

"CP should not be the only position to change policy..."

*BUZZZZZ* Wrong answer.
The CP has cabinet and advisors to help make decisions. Policy comes from the top down.

And with that I leave you to your stage, enjoy the applause.

C'mon ez. There are maybe 30 of us left on the entire flipping planet of 7.6 billion souls that even have any interest typing shit about ecanada. If we don't do it, we know that the other 7,610,113,923 ain't gonna be bothered. Sorry, scratch that, 7,610,114,097. I better hurry. The amount of people who won't comment about ecanada keeps growing b7 the second!