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I think for once we did a hell of a job preparing for and event. Collecting this 3000 gold was a project running in silence for +/- 10 months now. First of all congratz to all governments who made it possible to collect this kind of gold.

Second, I approve this mission!

Yes! The culmination of months of hard work to provide for our people 🙂

Wouldn't be possible without consent and work of several governments, but also our ordinary taxpaying citizens... saving Gold, while running simultaneously multiple popular programs, and cutting down Work Tax by half, is not an easy task for a small country - and yet we made it happen together.

Now let's move through the finish line, and help our people in grand scheme! Brighter future of Dutch people is once again in your hands, Congress 🙂 !

Without getting into detail about the amount of money (3,000 golds seems a very nice amount) I am generally in favor of spending a large sum in this event, at the end of the day there are not many things left to do with the money.

Well if you look at in perspective, 3000 Gold is not even ''that much'' in relation to our monthly budget or what people need to upgrade companies. For example, that is what the Monetary Market Program makes in a lucrative month (like this one with the power spin thing) or what someone like Weekstrom or me makes in a month with packs. But at the end of the day it is about giving selectively based on requirements people some money that helps them and eNL collectively with some own input, not ''freebies'' that are left wasted afterwards 😃.

Every application should be handled by congress on a case by case situation.

Every application should be at least 50% considered a loan.

Packs and or energy bars should either be 100% loan or be excluded.

Just one question: why? We don't ask Congress to approve every Flying or Ground subsidy? Seems very inefficient during a time where swift action is mostly needed? Congress can of course check the transfers every time they want and act when they desire so by a majority-vote.

I am also more in favor of giving money for investing (TGs/Companies) than for spending. Mainly because it is something long term instead of spending on bars.

Majority of spending is of course intended for investing - however, we want active players, who are not interested in company promotions, but only military promotions, to not go empty-handed as well. Depends on how good the military promotions will actually be, of course - if they will try to focus on air, as their recent changes suggest, it might actually be interesting to jump on that even for regular citizens.

I also don't agree on the heavy ''loan'' requirements. All our funds are derived from tax from our people for this purpose, so why should the Government ''earn'' on providing help to citizens? Of course, some responsibility is required from any applicant, hence why there are consequences of ''loans'' (aka paying back) when one doesn't follow the rules of Government.

So, there is 3 000 Gold available, which belongs to our citizens. That is undisputed fact.

But instead of giving it to them, as you should, you want to loan citizens their own money, so you can take them back again, and only after such a loan is approved by Congress? A.k.a procedure, which is not done in any other government program?

No - Black Friday is not about loans, and Black Friday is not about political bickering in Congress about who is "politically convenient" enough to get subsidy. Black Friday is about giving the active community their money backm and your proposal goes in the direct opposite of that.

By the way, for ordinary public: This comes after another Iron and Wine member proposed in Congress the maximum spending should be only 200 Gold IN TOTAL. Clearly, some characters do not want our citizens to use money from the treasury, and it is weird, why they oppose it as much. Despite them being first to line up, whenever they can obtain a sponsorship from the state 😉 .

What is the main role of the state? To take care of its citizens. How does it do so? Via spending money on them. Keeping money in treasury and doing nothing with them helps noone - not even the state itself in the long run. On the contrary, when you invest those money in a right way, both state and citizens can actually generate more income, thus perpetually being able to obtain more and more money, making the country stronger. That's what has been happening in the last year, and the positive results have been visible in any metric you think of.

a. sharing information from private congress.

b. sharing that information in a way that isn't true.

the 200 max was a prediction since government had until that point not shared anything with congress.

Glad you are here to defend your words in front of the nation.

And no, it was not a prediction, you basically requested government to ask for 200 Gold permit, meaning you want only 200 Gold to be spent. And when you were informed the government has more funds available, you kept defending 200 Gold limit.

Per person, it's not a bad limit, I agree with you on that 🙂 . Per nation, it is a disaster idea.

Even if there was 200 million gold available, government had at that point no concrete plans presented to congress.

Either tell the truth or don't say anything at all.

So you never said 200 Gold maximum should be spent, after you were given details, as you requested, for an event happening two MONTHS from now.

Okay then, keep living in your imaginary reality, I guess.

welke details heeft hij gekregen die de rest van congres niet heeft gehad? dit debat is het eerste moment dat er details vrijgegeven werden, al zijn berichten over 200 goud waren voor dat dit debat geopend is.

jacen maakte een goede opmerking, vertel de waarheid of zeg niks.

I already read those exact words from you in English, odan - you do not need to be that kind to translate them in two languages 🙂 .

ah kijk je leugens worden aan het daglicht gebracht, in plaats van je ongelijk toe te geven ga je meteen met de je bent meerdere personen stok zwaaien.

Some shouldn't play-pretend ignorance. A ''Black Friday Fund'' has been in the talks (IN PUBLIC) for almost a year: https://www.erepublik.com/en/article/2692744 . Just as it is known and public that subsequent Governments have been collecting gold, which is not happening for no reason or for fun.

I know it is hard to be flexible (because we can't pinpoint exactly what actions are to be taken during BF) and think about the long-term for some but let's try for the betterment of our nation. It is one of the few things we as eNL politicians can really do to effectively help eNL and our people.

ja er is ooit eens een paar zinnetjes aan gewijd. en daarna is er in principe nooit weer wat over gedeeld.

en het dan gek vinden als mensen uiteindelijk eens info gaan eisen als een regeringslid begint te praten over het uitgeven van miljoenen zonder dat er ook maar iets concreets aan het belangrijkste orgaan in het land voorgelegd is...

Seems like everyone's wishes come true then, since we are extensively debating it now well in advance after some concerns were raised in Congress PM. At this stage we can finally make good estimates what has been collected and what can distributed.

So before soon Congress will have the last say whether or not they want to distribute saved tax money back to the people during the most lucrative moment 🙂. I'm intrigued to see where people stand on this in the vote.

The fact you are apparently unaware of plans related to Black Friday tells a lot of what game you play odan('s). Black Friday is roughly the same every year so you know what to expect. If you can't picture what kind of support would be given related to that you're again proving to be unfit to manage game affairs.

As for your 200 gold limit: yes you gave that, defended it and again showed to have no clue on the game and amounts of (in this case gold) involved in matters. Again: unfit to manage game affairs.

If you would really want to be taken serious as a player you could finally (try to) think with gov/congress rather than vote everything down that comes to our international relations (TW's concessions for instance) and aiding our players (Green Baret, Flying Dutch, Black Friday to name a few).
While at the same time I&W is one of the first to claim their payments (in a very uncivilized way I might add) and might even be the biggest harvester of those funds if you look on the average per player.

But hey: that's how we know you/most of I&W: 2 standards al the way.

yes i talked about 200 gold. because the government presented us with 0 information at that time.

so i need to vote yes on things i don't agree with otherwise i'm not a serious player...

So you do not agree with government helping players - good you stated it publicly.

@Jacen.Solo, you have the information now. 1
Are you unhappy with the amount of gold the government wishes to hand out to active Dutch citizens so they can optimally benefit from the Black Friday discounts? 2. are you unhappy that the government wants to hand out gold to begin with? 3. are you unhappy that the governments have all been working towards something and you as a member of congress feel you were not informed enough over the course of time?

Is there are 4?
If 1. What should be amount be in your opinion?
If 2. You don't think the government should help its active citizens why?
If 3. The governments of the past 10 months can only apologize for this but that won't change much. Voting this down when you think it is a good idea to help active citizens is a bitter reaction to not receiving the information beforehand. As a defense from the government you might argue that they notified congress 2 months in advance of the actual black friday

@shawtylow

the amount is fine.

the proposed methods are not.

blackpatje posted a better method above.

Giving people loans, and therefore not spending the saved Gold as we should, is not better.... atleast not for Dutch citizens. Or the state itself.

But this goes for all your "better" versions, they are mostly nonsense, with maybe one or two Mael Dunbar excepuons.

'I object!' 😃

Should benefit The Country and players. Very nice job guys !

Excellent!

I've noticed some people wish that the gold that has been made available for you the citizens is handed out as a partly loan.

The BF program is a program funded by tax money. The funds therefore belong with the people not with the government. Paying back part of the loan makes no sense when you look at it that way.

In the past we used loans as a way to ensure our money wasn't wasted on new players who leave the game 2 months after they recreived a monetary sum in the form of a loan. During the pitched BF distribution the government will check player activity based on his kilitary accomplishments and experience gain over time. Also there are very little 'new players' this thr chances of the benefactors (people who receive BF funding) leaving are slim.

I believe we should hand out the gold to the people who have paid their taxes and, meet the requirements drafted by the government. These requirements can always be improved so in case you have a better sollution please present it to the government. And with requirements I mean the selection of people who are eligible to receive funding not the amount of in what form.

all programs are funded by tax money.

loans ensure people get the (temporary) amount they need, but also ensures the country can increase a program (and perhaps others) like this future since not all will be spend.

also since it's funded by tax money military accomplishments should hardly count since that is a marginal part of our tax income.

"also ensures the country can increase a program (and perhaps others) like this future since not all will be spend."

... so... you do not want to spend the money, because you want to spend the money? Logic 101. Haven't seen a weaker argument for not spending money on citizens during my entire eRep career.

"also since it's funded by tax money military accomplishments should hardly count since that is a marginal part of our tax income."

Good luck defending our nation without military accomplishments. You need both economy and military for country to function. I know, you are not invested in either of them, so you do not know these parts of the game... but believe me it is true 😉 .

handing out (partial) loans is also spending. perhaps you should visit that logic class yourself.

were did i say we don't need a military? oh right i didn't you are just spouting bull again.

i have factories (and plan to upgrade/add new ones). i work/train daily. and no i don't fight much since i think it's the weakest and most boring aspect of this game.

Yes, giving someone a loan, which will be returned back, is an expenditure. I guess that's how country operated in the past, hence why no actual money was spent on citizens, despite budgets thriving with expenditure... However, if you rather prefer Government to ask for expenditure of 6 000 Gold, where 3 000 Gold will be considered loans - go ahead! As long as the actual Gold expenditure will be the 3 000 Gold requested, I think it should be no problem.

And yes, you 2-click daily, that is true. You do so inefficiently, because account like yours could be much more benefitial to our nation, if used fully... but if you prefer playing without fighting or producing - your choice. Just do not be surprised governments tend to support more active players, who contriute to this nation on higher scale.

Jacen, sorry, but this once again shows the lack of knowledge of the game - which is nothing bad, but don't go around proclaiming all kinds of falsities in that case. Or is malevolently acted this way to deceive Congress, but I hope that is not the case either.

* ''Military accomplishments should hardly count since that is a marginal part of our tax income''.
Let's ask Weekstrom, 911mic, Shawtyl0w etc that derive big income from either fighting or indirectly producing for that goal. You can't detach the two from each other which can be clearly seen during ''events'' and what influence the 'weakest and most boring aspect of the game' has on economic affairs.

* ''but also ensures the country can increase a program (and perhaps others) like this future since not all will be spend.''
False dilemma. You make it look like helping people during Black Friday equals spending it all and therefore is a danger to ''Programs'' (which, mind you, have always been cynically criticized by you and friends). Either that is a lie, or you still live in 2016 where indeed, such spending relatively would equal bankruptcy. That proposed 3000 Gold is as much (in cc) that is often made in a few days/weeks by us (i.e. last week alone there was a MM Profit above that). So: We can both increase programs and spend on BFF and still make a profit 😃

* ''loans ensure people get the (temporary) amount they need''
This is just a vain attempt to make it as hard as possible for people to get help. If there were loans included in the initial proposal you would find something else to attack (e.g. that we can only spend 200 Gold, which thankfully has been reconsidered).

Besides the fact that the money has been saved for such a purpose from people their contributions as others have rightfully pointed out: You are just screaming 'loans!'. How would that even look like? Don't bother, because practically loans would be irrational to apply (in comparison to e.g. highly profitable Training Grounds). You are, in essence, arguing that people should be on a permanent loan contract for using their own collective money in a situation in which there is plenty and more. You want to apply an interest rate too? If that is what you want to make people endure before they are deemed worthy for help, then I pass!

The vote has been started

I'm a bit curious about the logistics... Before knowing what the deals are, our citizens cannot really apply for this money ("the most rational pick"). But once the deals are clear, they can never get all this gold in one day...

Also, in case we get new immigrants in the next few months: should we just continue our ordinary checks, or will we limit immigration or black Friday deals for them? Otherwise, we may be attracting a couple of gold diggers, who did absolutely nothing for this but are still citizens at the time this money gets handed out...

Other than these two remarks, I think it's a good idea to formally make arrangements at this stage. And ~100 gold seems like a significant amount for most of our citizens. Yes, I know there are people who make this sort of money in a day, but most (myself included) most definitely don't.

From the document provide😛

a) Method of expenditure: Just like in other programs, you need to submit a screenshot of you upgrading your TG/company/buying Energy bars - therefore it is expected you already have the Gold necessary to do so on your account, and the Gold sponsorship will be sent to you retroactively in following days based on the screenshots you will send.

b) You also need to be active Dutch citizen for atleast 6 months prior to the Black Friday to be able to receive any kind of sponsorship

Indeed more details are given in the linked document, but it was a lot of text to read yesterday evening (2.5 pages), so I only just read it properly just now.

Great to see that these details were also considered in this document. Awesome job! 😃