[Congres debat/debate] Update SCI
Day 4,802, 00:44
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Published in Netherlands 
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by
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by UNL Congress
Burgers en Congresleden van eNederland,
Congreslid blackpatje wil graag het onderstaande als wijziging in de SCI voorstellen.
Congressmember blackpatje would like to propose a change to SCI drawn up below.
huidige versie/current version: https://wiki.erepublik.com/index.php/Security_Council_for_Immigrants
voorgestelde nieuwe versie/proposed new version:
1. The government is responsible for reviewing all Dutch citizenship applications and posting all information gathered about the applicant in Congress, where Congress provides consultation to applications. This information gathering phase is at a minimum 24 hours, after which a vote can be held.
2. Applicants from allied countries (members of alliance, members of friendly alliances) can be accepted after a simple majority vote in congress.
3. Applicants from all other countries can be accepted after a 2/3 majority vote in congress.
4. In case the application is accepted, Congress is requested to provide citizenship to the applicant. Congress members can only accept citizenship requests after a successful vote.
5. Provisions for an expedited request from players in allied countries might be accepted immediately without following the aforementioned procedures based on the decision of (vice)President and/or Minister of Home/Foreign Affairs; however they need to be explained in Congress prior granting of citizenship, afterwards a vote will be held in accordance to point 2, if congress does not agree with the government in this vote no further expedited requests will be allowed for the remainder of that governments term.
6. Provisions for an expedited request from players in allied countries include, but are not limited to, applications due to the needed usage of ghost boosters in allied wars, applications due to the inability to work in applicants factories because of existing war in its country, applications due to the seeking temporary refuge from the wipe of applicants country or Expatriates/Honorary Citizens.
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odan en blackpatje
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Comments
This seems like a big step back in time. The current version is not in place for so long and had been accepted by a large majority. This is a call for extremely slow bureaucracy (sometimes lasting more than 48 hours), intricate and vague laws (ie why have 5 at all if you want to severely limit things, not to mention adding that last sentence which seems very strange legally) and above all making something that is mere procedure political and prone to filibustering.
An explanation why this is needed and what its intentions are to fix would have been nice. This is not really an 'update', but a reactionary change presented as update.
So because something has been in place for not so long it’s not allowed to suggest improving it? Also it’s been in place for quite some time now.
For normal requests it adds at most 24 hours. If a person is unwilling to wait for our laws and procedures do we even want them?
I kept 5 in for the rare instances it could be required, and added the last bit to keep government from abusing it.
Improving is a matter of perspective, and you are free to do so. It is merely my observation of the proposed amendment.
Following your proposal, most requests unless an emergency-like reason takes 48 hours at least. I don't see how adding even more time equals to a benefit as opposed to 24 hours we have now, or how that implies unwillingness to wait when they already do and have done.
Most importantly, the shoehorned in voting procedures seem convoluted and random. The distinction between simple and absolute majority have no valid grounds, besides the fact the application of citizenship has never been a political issue in the history of the eNetherlands. One just has to take a look at some of our neighbours to see what happens when the (slim) majority decides. Have you realized that it may actually be counter to your intentions, in that the current prevailing majority sees - less - objections to accept citizenships because they presumably have the justification of having a majority?
De stem procedure is redelijk duidelijk. vriendelijk(alliantie) enkel een simpele meerderheid nodig.
alle anderen 2/3 meerderheid.
Ik heb hem nog naar beneden kunnen praten van zijn eerste idee 2/3 en 3/4 meerderheid voor de stemmingen.
Nu geeft het ook echt de meerderheid de controle over immigratie in plaats van zoals nu enkel de regering, want in het huidige SCI wordt congres slechts geconsulteerd.
Gov asks questions and congress is free to debate. If congress finds grounds to oppose someone from joining our country gov will listen in reality as you've seen this rarely happens. We had a discussion maybe once in the last 6 months all other cs applications were not heavily discussed due because congress decided they had no problem with these players.
It is not clear at all, odan. You are explaining 'friendly' as alliance. What does that imply, only Hydra? Why does the proposal speak of ''alliances''. So Asteria too? Neutrals? People well-known to Dutch community but not in the vague ''alliances''? Our own people temporarily switching CS for in-game reasons (ie booster use)?
3. Applicants from other countries (including, but not limited to, countries being at conflict with eNL and/or its allies, or countries with no defined relationship towards eNL or its allies) can be accepted or rejected after a minimum of 24 hours of debate based on the decision of (vice)President or Minister of Home/Foreign Affairs.
At least the old one was more realistic 😉
Couple that with the arbitrary and random votes and required percentages and the complete complicating of procedures that run counter to the game (i.e. CS that require fastness, i.e. in the case of events and wars) I don't see why anyone would prefer this version over the current one.
Goede wijzigingen, geeft het congres weer de teugels in de handen die ze verdienen.
"however they need to be explained in Congress prior granting of citizenship, afterwards a vote will be held in accordance to point 2,"
What is the point in having 5 if there still needs to be a vote in congress about it? Or do you mean that after accepting there will be a retrospective vote? Might need some rephrasing there.
I thought it was clear. But yes it would be a retrospective vote.
Making sure congress has control over all of the citizenship requests
Retrospective votes? That sounds quite convoluted and unnecessary in our slimmed down rules, especially when its a case in which there is no turning back. We have enough delusions of meta-ism as it is
And besides that, quite abundant. Congress can always propose whatever vote they want, including votes that judge on previous decisions. Let's keep it simple, no? 😉
Ik moet wel zeggen dat ik teluergesteld ben, waar is de Nederlandse versie van dit voorstel?
Ik ben langzaam aan het complete wetboek aan het herschrijven in het Nederlands, had even geen tijd om deze meteen te vertalen, mogelijk voeg ik nog een Nederlandse versie toe later, maar waarschijnlijk wacht ik tot het totale wetboek klaar is.
Heb maar zoveel tijd op een dag vrij ervoor dus het zal wel even gaan duren.
Heel begrijpelijk, en groot respect dat je het complete wetboek aan het herschrijven bent. Je bent daarin echt verandert, toen GPN hier vroeger over sprak antwoordde jij steevast dat dit een engels spel is.
The Law Book has been unchanged for a lifetime in eRepublik Terms. So what does 'finished' imply? Is it ever finished? Or is it just a ploy that never sees the daylight to curry favour with some people, since as Zeeuwsmeisje said, you often insulted players for speaking Dutch.
Zucht. je vriendelijkheid blijft er af spatten tonie...
Klaar betekend klaar, heb tot nu toe boek 1 100% gedaan, en zit bij boek 2 op ongeveer 70%.
I have no personal problems with you, nor do I have any issue being friendly with you. But since this is a political debate in which there is push backwards (or rather, pertaining ideals that are irrelevant in this game) I will resist that with tooth and nail. I indeed take problem with the Dutch caricature you found some time ago as it is rude in communication with some of our very own citizens, especially considering the fact you are representing some of them through your position as Chairman of Congress and preaching about disrespect.
De wet is duidelijk nederlands is een toegestane taal in debatten.
In mijn functie als CoC voeg ik altijd een vertaling toe.
Keeping the structure of the current version intact, but giving ultimate control over to the branch that should decide.
Good proposal.
Government is way more suited for deciding who comes to NL or not.
1. We have easy access to alot of international people in order to check any given person.
2. No one with bad intentions joined NL under Gov approval so it's a group of people NL citizens can trust.
3. Gov always asks congress what they think of in every application no one ever answers.
Het staat de regering vrij om hun mening te geven, of iemand voor te dragen voor burgerschap. Maar zij behoren niet te bepalen wat wel/niet goed voor het land is, daar hebben we een congres voor.
1. Het is en blijft de taak van de regering om informatie te verzamelen.
2. Dat is een mening, er zijn meerdere mensen nederland binnen gekomen met leuke verhalen, die even een medaille/goud pakken en snel weer vertrekken, niet echt mensen met goede intenties.
3. Omdat de regering 9 vd 10 keer dingen die congresleden zeggen gewoon naast zich neerleggen. Wat dus bijvoorbeeld resulteert in dingen die bij punt 2 gebeuren.
Won't bother using Google translate
I'd like to see some examples of point 3. Just because the Chairman of Congress personally does not agree on something the Government does, does not equal ''Government ignores Congress 9/10 times'' which is kind of insulting and fear-mongering. And once again, if you feel that happens you are free to stop anything with a Congressional majority, as Congress indeed has that final power. But languishing in self-victimization is always easier than facing the fact a great majority of the population and Congress does not share your opinions, since we've never seen any proposal of disapproving presented, let alone it being accepted.
I don't see any of this as being productive...
I'm personally against most changes that slows down processes that already work great, and in this particular case, there's absolutely no advantage whatsoever, only an excessive bureaucratization of the whole process without any real practical change. Plus, I completely trust the government to make these kinds of decisions, since they are generally a group of people with much more international activity and thus much more intel that helps making such decisions, rather than lolgressmen. Also, since both congress and government are voted by the people, and therefore they both have legitimacy to act in regard of the country matters, I'm much more comfortable to leave such matters to the gov rather than congress, for all the reasons mentioned above.
"lolgressmen"
typefout of disrespect naar je mede congresleden....
De regering blijft ook in deze voorgestelde wijziging hoofdverantwoordelijk voor het inzamelen van informatie over de immigrant.
In de huidige regels kan 1 persoon beslissen, dus kan ook 1 persoon het helemaal fout doen, in de voorgestelde regels moeten congres en regering samen werken, en is congres eindverantwoordelijk zoals het hoort.
must have been a typo... 🙈
Odan, you have no right to talk about disrespect when consistently and unnecessarily you keep disrespecting people of our community by silencing community by refusing to speak English to those people, despite ridiculing people who spoke Dutch for half a decade.
But I guess, amongst others, the ''Dirty Portuguese'' don't deserve that much.
Waarom is het disrespectvol om 1 van de officiële talen van eNL te gebruiken?
En verleden is verleden, mensen kunnen veranderen.
The irony in odan using word disrespectful, LOLDAN 😃
Doe mij eens een voorbeeld van de afgelopen zeg 6 maanden waar ik disrespectvol ben geweest naar iemand?
En Nederlands praten is niet disrespectvol, het is 1 van de toegestane talen in ons land.
Mooie wijzigingen, en zoals ook gezegd geeft Congres weer controle over immigratie. Zou wel graag zien dat punt 1 maximaal 24 uur word, ipv min.
Waarom als ik vragen mag? minimaal 24 uur betekend dat er eventueel nog extra informatie gevonden kan worden, max 24 uur zou kunnen zorgen voor onvolledige informatie tijdens een stemming.
Most of the time we present information before bringing it to congress thus giving 24h to request extra information sounds fair enough. We all agree that once a discussion arrises we will not start the vote in the middle of the discussion the current gov never pushed a vote while there was an argument. Only once everyone has had their say and a clear majority was in favour or against we asked congress to accept a cs request. With these changes that would mean starting the vote.
Good example is the recent cs application by a citizen with highest TP damage in Croatia.. many people shared their point of view.
Dat moet toch ook in 24 uur kunnen? Ik wil de procedure niet te lang laten duren.
Natuurlijk het kan in 24 uur, daarom ook minimaal 24. Maar voor de gevallen die meer tijd nodig hebben, is het handig om de mogelijkheid te hebben voor meer tijd.
The only realistic alternative that compromises between the two different positions (practicality and legitimacy) in this debate would be keeping the current procedures, but adding that during the current waiting and information period there is a opportunity for verbal dissent by enough Members of Congress / Political Parties that can spawn an immediate voting if so desired and only in these cases.
Dunno when theres a vote on this , but my vote will be NO .
This coz i see more con's than pro's with this change .
In my opinion this will only coz more discussions & problems than we need or have now .
What a joke of a proposal! Thats what you get for electing odans for CoC, enjoy voting for them next time 😉
It is a clear blantant attempt to give Netherlands a U-Turn un out development and growth of strength. Without the needed change of protocols I have implemented last year we would not have obtained the desired fighting force we needed to grow our community nor the damage capacity needed for our goals.
An attempt to isolate Netherlands once again and return to the period of weakness.
Nederlands is een prachtige taal, en die moet hier de ruimte BLIJVEN krijgen!!!
o7