How to Get Along
Lord Lewis Cromwell
Hi everyone!
I've been thinking a bit about the national media, how corrupt some people's words are, the intelligence some people have shown and some interesting debates (or flat-out arguments for those who don't know how to debate) and came to one conclusion: What the hell is some people's problem?
"I hate forums!"
Fine then, but why do people play a political game if they hate discussion?
Surely, if someone has said they hate fora, discussion, exchanging ideas and otherwise, they cannot expect to do well in a game where winning over people with ideas is much more important than flexing your muscles (unless you have a webcam and a youtube partnership, but still a bit ineffective). Why do they bother, then? What's their problem?
"I hate the most successful party in the country and some of the forum staff are members of that party"
Now we're getting somewhere.
Why are you filled with hatred? Why do you fight for the sake of fighting? What have I done differently to you that has led us down separate paths, because I am neither a member of this "monopolist" party you are screaming about, do not talk to them and have no great friends there but I am not filled with rage. Perhaps because I am not screaming with rage and have a sense of humour I have been accepted into a wider community than my own party and am happier for it? Yes, something like that.
"But they edited a post and gave me an infraction point!"
Ok, you must've said something that crossed a line somewhere. No biggy, it's happened to me too! I got curious about this "elitist" group of world-dominating madmen and did a little reading, did you know they're actually real people who just seem to want to get along? How would you react if people were setting up parties and rallying people against you just for existing? If you feel truly persecuted perhaps you need to consider that you were actually going too far as well, nobody is perfect.
I found in one of our CP's recent articles that they welcome all applicants to join the moderator team, and so me, an independent, a nobody, a foul-mouthed wretch with a bad sense of humour can join this elitist sub-culture. Wow, I've finally made it. Perhaps by opening yourself and your mind you can make it, too.
"But they're EXCLUSIVE and like to hide things!"
How so? Have you been declined membership when asked? Were you fobbed off when you asked a question? Perhaps your PM was ignored completely? I know that some of my PM's have been ignored lately and they weren't sent to anyone "elitist". Perhaps you're only reading what you want to read. Question yourself before you question others, the answers to what is angering you is often in you.
"I prefer to use IRC!"
That's cool, but that doesn't mean they're wrong for using a very widespread and well-honed method of online communication. They probably use IRC too and if you accepted that they are just people too, using what they like using and what has proven useful then you'd be less angry in yourself and more productive. For example, I can be reached on the forums, in-game mail and on IRC, my friend can be reached on IRC and so when I want to contact him I use IRC, when I want to contact my other friend I use the forums and thus I am utilising every tool and accepting their opinions of usage to the greater benefit of my friendships and am happier for it.
"Well I don't like them forums so I'll make my own!"
Why? Isn't that defeating your own point? You feel that one widespread and established forums who a lot of people have put a lot of time, money and effort into to make as good as they can be isn't inclusive enough and so make your own where you and your band of brothers can do exactly the same somewhere else, excluding everyone else? Do you not see the logical fallacy your anger has brought about?
"But in one of their articles they said 'Join the forums!'"
How else are new people going to know there is such a useful method of communication for them to have their voice heard so easily? Rebelling against every miniscule thing will see you struggling against your duvet for the rest of your life while those around you get out of bed and enjoy themselves.
"I just want to use in-game communication!"
That's fine, too. But don't expect the world to revolve around you when there are better options. Accepting that fact will make you a better person since life will treat you the same way. As mentioned before, it's ok to choose which methods you like, dislike and use, but don't expect everyone to be the same. In-game functions are unwieldy for large groups in private and impossible for open debate.
"The government should use in-game articles to tell the people everything!"
I think you'll find that they already do and have always done.
"The public should be included in all discussion!"
The very people who were touting this before the congress elections stopped touting it as soon as they got into congress. You'll find all congressional discussion except very rare sensitive issues on the forums, not (as these people have been lobbying for since they took their congress votes and gold) in private messages where people can't have their say. Come to your own conclusions on those "people". Perhaps more of the public would be having their say on these discussions if lies hadn't been spread about their usage.
"We're CLEANING the eUK!"
I'm disgusted to see this kind of comment from some people. Terrible, terrible things have been done with this kind of mentality. Question yourself for your own good.
Forums are perfect for open debate, IRC is perfect for instant debate, in-game articles are perfect for well-presented and lasting ideas to be put forward and private messages either on the forums or in-game are pretty much the same. Everything has it's merit, every single one is useful, that is why the community (not TUP, not Keers, not our current CP, not me or Romper) has adopted all methods to collectively function for all citizens to participate in some form or other.
Calling for the sole usage of one method has only been called out by one portion of one party which has recently surfaced. Nobody has ever claimed "ONLY USE THE FORUMS OR YOU'RE A BAD PERSON!" nor "IRC IS THE ONLY METHOD YOUR SHOULD USE!" but these people have been campaigning as if the people who use the forums for discussion do so as some power play rather than it's utility, who will use IRC for secret chat rooms and call for all discussion and communication to be done in the public eye "for the people".
What they haven't realised is that if you've chosen which methods of communication you like and are willing to utilise, and take the stick out of your backside to actually just get along with the wider community than your own party and make our NATION get along you will be accepted from every angle. Balance everything!
Now be cool, stay cool or learn what cool is!
LLC
Proud member of the coolest party
Comments
Voice of reason! (:
Thought provoking article LLC
Brilliant as ever
euk chill the feck up, and Be Most Excellent to one and another
Use the method you prefer and get in contact. It is possible.
Voted!
Thanks guys, curious why the comments aren't getting trolled yet 😛
Prepare to be elite'd
Voted
LOL!!!
"Rebelling against every miniscule thing will see you struggling against your duvet for the rest of your life while those around you get out of bed and enjoy themselves."
voted, you elitist you.
Great article, you points are well explained and this is probely the first rational article i have seen on this matter
I have to agree LLC, we all play to suit our own tastes.
this article makes confusion between forums and troll moderators. We don't hate forums, we don't like trolls. We don't hate, we just want an enjoyable game for every single one. And yes, we are CLEANING. Shame I don't have the time to write a couple articles about the subject. Anyway, congratulations, LLC,
you've been awarded with a Golden Crow of the Merit of the Sacred and Royal Non-peasant-of-mind Order of TUP. (when it comes to troll be imaginative. YOU,LLC, are not very brilliant at this)
Are you on some new form of allergy medication? I think you need to reduce the dosage.
>I hate forums - Fine then, but why do people play a political game if they hate discussion?
Implying that the forums are the only place where discussion can and should occur (ignoring the argument about what percent of the active eUK actually goes there)
>I hate the most successful party in the country and some of the forum staff are members of that party
Your taking one issue (forum moderation) and attaching the rider that any dissent must be down to hate of the player or party
>"But they're EXCLUSIVE and like to hide things!"
With a reference to your first point - Forums are treated as the be-all and end-all and having visited today (as a guest) I can see that they've had discussions on Legion, Forum moderation and a few other non-RP points of intrests in the 'public discussion' area.
Given the percentages of forum users to actual eUK players and their distribution between the various schools of thought (or parties if you prefer) then just how 'public' and 'consensual' are the decisions reached here?
(This is a form of hiding/denial and a discussion on the secretz irc channels and sub-forums is probably more appropiate but I don't plan on getting anyone in trouble by touching that)
>""Well I don't like them forums so I'll make my own!"
Players are free to do as they wish and the better product will win out (albeit the Kumnaa group have the strength of precedence) and to be honest if PCP, NE and UKPP lived on another forum to TUP, ESO and UKRP then its not all that much different to the situation we have now aside from there being a focal point where the 'traditionalists' can contact the 'reformists'.
"But in one of their articles they said 'Join the forums!'"
If 'TUP and pals' ever lose power then they can still ask people to join their forums. They are free to organise how they'd like and others are free to join them if they wish.
The problem comes when you try enforce use of an off-site element.
"I just want to use in-game communication!"
The reason we are here is because of the game and despite what RP laws, scenarios and plans we come up with off-site...........the ability to do something in-game > fap.
If a party or group, can't or don't want to engage with the in-game users because it's hard work/unweildy then they are just representative of and focused on the issues of a private group not the epopulace of the nation.
>"The public should be included in all discussion!"
A combination of TUP, ESO and UKRP ahs more seats then the UKPP and NE combination and therefore the latter group cannot pass laws independent of the first group.
The first group advocate the use of 'secretz channels' to do their job and will restrict the access of anyone who wants to include the public.
The UKPP and NE congressmembers are therefore caught between wanting to involve the public and in being granted the tools to do their job.
As for the emergence of a new political thought.....
UKPP appeared over a year ago and raised the very same points that the new group do. The difference being that the UKPP produced policy and was open to reasonable compromise.
Nothing changed, any 'reforms' were rebranding and rehash and (if we adopt the Goku thought of political orientation) the emergence of a party furthur to the right of UKPP is merely a response to and recognition of the fact that the older parties cannot or will not change.
Wheter this is down to rank elitism, arrogance or pure blindness to the need for change............it maybe a mixture of all of them and more.
So that 'the hell' is our problem Mr Cromwell.
Would you like me to post 20 comments as a response to your series of misguided perceptions from my article, Alfa? I'm genuinely a little confused as to how you want me to respond to how wrong you have taken my meaning, the long series of awkward comment-space which only goes to display how useful a forum is, what kind of reaction your zealousness is trying to provoke and whether actually responding with any series of words will matter because you will only take the meaning you want to take.
We certainly could have done this on a forum but on the 'kumnaa' then it'd be me being shouted down by a dozen TUP guys plus their foreign affiliates who share you rpoint of view.
In addition I'm not refuting what you believe to be the state of play or attempting to twist your words because "I hate the most successful party in the country and some of the forum staff are members of that party" I'm just trying to explain how its viewed from the other side of the coin.
You can dismiss it ofc and as long as the 'traditonlists' retain the balance of power then that's a fair strategy.
but if/when/should the 'anarchists' take control then you might want to consider that the slogans such as 'theifs'. 'liars', 'PTOers', 'fascists', that get used might be obscurance what they consider as legitimate greivances.
I'm not a dismissive kind of guy, Alfa, but I have written an article displaying how a logical train of thought and sense of community can answer things instead of bitterness and you answer it by displaying how you and the people "on your side" miss the point entirely: you don't understand logic.
You can't spend your life campaigning for something not to be used and at the same time pretend it's absurd that the people who do use it have control of it. What logic is that? What's your point?
Had the very people who appear to hate the admin/process of the very forums they ditched acted with reason and acceptance instead of like little kids, and promoted "their side" using them instead of constantly telling people not to use them, then you would've found that a higher % of eUK would be well represented there in both discussion and moderation staff. It's YOUR FAULT that the forums are as they are, everyone who has continued using the forums has done their best to include the population
My point is that the author is using a number of statements to provide conclusions, ask questions and provide some summarised solution.
However the statements used to 'provoke' the article along are misconceptions themselves that only exsist in the mind of one side of the political coin.
Your logic might be immpecable but the premise is flawed.
The statements are from articles, article comments, messages and so on (some not direct quotes in order to keep it as short as possible) - I have used them specifically to kick off my train of thought on the subject. Where else am I to garner a premise? These are things people have been saying, some as answers to questions others as tools to advertise themselves and their ideas, if these thoughts are not on your mind then please rest assured they are on others and that is who I wrote this for.
I'm aware such comments are out there but as your address seems to be to the 'other lot' then surely using their comments rather then those generated by 'your side' would make for a more coherent and pointed debate?
"My side" at writing this consisted of one man who wanted to address comments made by individuals regardless of party/side, because I had been thinking about those comments and wanted to be constructive with my thoughts and conclusions. With some time spent trying to understand someone else's position and series of thoughts that leads them to different conclusions to myself, I can begin to understand what has led to a greater divide in our community that is detrimental to national progress.
NEW ERA is constructive if ANYTHING at all. NHS, national military, easier but controlled inmigration, support to newcomers, less taxes ( less blackmarket), openness in decision, wide range of alliances and wiser or real diplomacy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Seems even Goku is tired of Alphabethis.
Talking about your article being a strawman fallacy.
I think you'll have to do better than that, to be honest. If that's the best claim you can make against this article then obviously I've done a pretty good job of hitting a few things dead centre and if you'll read above, have actually made quite a bit of sense.
Perhaps if you read it without thinking "ANOTHER ARTICLE AGAINST ME OMFG" or that I'm sat here all day trying to oppose you you'd agree with some of the points. You simply don't occupy my mind enough to be the subject all the time.
half the trouble is that you truly believe you have 'hit things dead centre'.
LLC, you wrote your article like you are arguing against someone but you are not arguing against anyone's actual position.
First statement "I hate forums.", find me someone who hates forums in general. There is one in paticular I've used for many years and get on just fine.
If that's half the trouble then we don't have many troubles at all.
Goku, these are concerns, comments and things I have discussed with people that got me thinking: if you can't find one person who generally doesn't like forums then you obviously haven't looked around for opinions to find out how people think and feel but instead are telling them how they think and feel considering you're the one most popularly declaring you speak in the public interest. You are not everyone
I don't really like the forums - very little has ever been achieved there, but I do think it's foolish to ignore them. You're in congress LLC, read our history - the ancient Greeks sat around in forums while their world around them burned; the eUK has done the same thing time and time again looking to assign blame to a group or individual rather than sorting things out. My main problem with the eUK forums is it's a kids' playground, and I'm not a kid by any stretch of the imagination.
... and I think the age demographic of players playing in the eUK has got older - quite a lot older too.
Many might say "I hate the forums" but this doesn't mean as you suggest that they "hate discussion". the fallacy is that you think they do, which is 'half the problem' as there's going to be no changing of your opinion so any attempt between the groups to move the nation forward together is doomed to an ergo-like failure.
That's not to say that their isn't a player on the other side who is as equally deluded and can only understand simple, spoon fed concepts.
Sadly its the lunatics who get more airtime as its frankly easier to dismiss their rantings then engage in a thoughtfully designed, researched and factual article.
Again Alfa, you're missing the point of the article: Read it as a train of thought or events to lead to a conclusion, "why do people play a political game if they hate discussion?" was an assumption someone had as we were discussing why people didn't like forums. The intention here is to convince people, whatever their views, that it is possible to get along as a community - a thing you are simply trying to prove impossible. Another who is just making people think "What the hell is his problem?"
Apathetik, you're right it would be wrong to hide in the forums and not do anything. That's why I believe that balancing things and accepting people is an important thing for us to do. Apparently, as you can see, there are people who simply do not want everyone to get along and so the problem doesn't lie in people's opinions and acceptance as I addressed, but in the influence that other players have in their calls not to cooperate with things regardless of their intention.
I recognise it as a 'train of thought' I just disagree with the direction your steamtrain rolled off the tracks too.