Join the new world

I guess if people want war or not doesn't matter that much. It is more about declaring war without approval of the people. But I don't know the facts and haven't seen the debate so I don't know how well your decision is backed up by congress.

I'm surprised it took them so long tbh. Odan and the likes were just waiting for the first stick to hit with I suppose but I expected that within days.
I haven't seen much from you (communication is an issue but you're far from unique in that). Changing to elected nr 2 will not help in that respect. What I find disappointing until now is that you did not change anything within DAF. We even have odan as commander. Thats an improvement when it comes to killing our MU feed but apart from that it aint improving. Something I don't expect to happen with him either. The MU will only decline I suppose. And you promised to change that again...

Strange slander here. Odan is even member of this government. But hey wasnt this account banned for the use uf multies?

yeah, but that mistake was corrected the next day. For this account that is. 2 members of the same household however still are. Thx too one of the old dynosaurs that are among the same movement as odan and (to a bit lesser obvious extend) yourself.

I do not agree with the very limited viewpoint of this article at all.

@Sentence 1: It is great that there finally is an article in-game regarding this war. But a few rounds were already fought before there was any information for our citizens...
@Sentence 2: NO! It is not related to the war at all. It is regarding the undemocratic process leading up to this war. Congress did not get to vote on this war.
@Sentence 3&4: Is this your goodbye speech? The war has just begun. There is no real reason for thanks for something in the past before anything has happened...
@Sentence 5&6: If you had put it to a vote, congress probably would have approved, and there would have been no repercussions for you. Now congress is forced to make its objections to your behaviour clear. There WILL be a vote, and whatever the outcome, you should definitely not try to do something like this again. It's great that you realise that this war is now your responsibility, but you may be impeached before you get the chance to resign yourself.
@Sentence 7: Once again, we do (probably) not object to the war itself, but to the way it was started. The late information regarding this war just adds to this...

this discussion should not be taking place here..

comon guys.

This article in our official presidential newspaper is nothing but discussion. I don't know what you expect for the comments of a provocative article like this?

If you mean to say that this article should not be posted in this newspaper but in Shtula's private newspaper, I agree.
Instead this article should be reformed to be purely informative.

Where do you want to have the discussion then? We shouldn't play the forum game but also have discussion ingame so everyone can participate without visiting the forum. I think it's great to have a discussion here, but I agree it would have been better if it was in the private newspaper of Shtula.

Well done Shtula, you may have saved many lives!

Boring boring for a couple of months now.

I have warned you at the beginning of the term about the stab in the back you are going to receive though.

It's very logical if you win heavy contested elections you will be checked better by the opposition. That is the best thing about the last elections and it would be great if that is always the case. If there is no opposition, like when I was CP, you can do what you want, which is bad imo.

I don't see it as stabbing in the back, but more checks and balances for the government. Which also means the decisions that are taken and backed by congress while there is much opposition, have more legitimacy then decisions by previous governments with no opposition. So it's a good thing congress is doing something 😛

That means for the CP to be extra careful. If you make mistakes, the opposition will be very eager to make sure you know you did.

[removed]

The majority of people hate the forum. Can we have an in game vote to get rid of it along with the un-representative congress with it's over complicated bendable rules? It has for some time only harmed the community. Rather let the presidential winner make all the war decisions like in a normal democracy.

Are you not a bit tired of having major discussions about some nothing rule having been broken? For me it is really boring.

Hahaha. Autocracy for the win! No more congress, no more checks, no more activity, no more information, only war, war and war. If you like it or not we are going to war every month with different countries, depending on the guy we voted in.

We will lose all our friends almost immediately, we will be kicked out of Orion and the activity of the community will drop dramatically. Only the two-clickers and the egoists will be left to vote and show some activity about which packs are great to buy. I know why this option is very tempting. Those people are always agreeing with everything. So you don't have any criticism.

Why do u laught SpirTus? Are you enough blind to deny the autocracy Odan and his friends are doing in this hole?

A moderator who deleted post in this dead forum, an expat with congressional rights, an irc channel with bad moderation, your laugh is nothing more than your non existent knowledge about what is happening here since one month ago when the worst CP ever was in charge

I know how the elitism of I&W works yes. It is much less worse than it was in the past. You have a completely different understanding of democracy which isn't applied here in eNL. It would have been great if you had been constructive to help to try to implement some more democratic ways of doing stuff, but sadly you can't. At least not yet.

I don't like posts removed and I am very much against it. But we made general rules about this, and if those rules are broken, you posts will be removed. I don't like the rule, but it is what it is. Also the law it very clear about expats. They can have citizen rights just like the usual dutch citizen. That includes political positions. Right now I'm an expat and MoHa at the same time and that has always been allowed in eNL and still is.

It seems you don't understand what 'law' and 'rules' mean. Or you just don't like the rules and won't listen to them if you don't like it. You have to behave within the rules, even if you don't like them. There is a chance in this game to make the rules of society yourself with others. But that is constructive politics which has nothing to do with living by your own and want the rules to be changed to have it your way.

Did you even read these posts? Do you think these rules apply in some impartial way? Really Spir Tus? Really?

Stop your moral thing when no one here give a fuck for being impartial, wake up and look how your "beautiful" community is dying for these "rules" and a few people doing a shit work like odan and co. Just wake up

You see something what is in your eyes not right, and your reaction is to do exactly the same. You see someone misbehave, and what you do is misbehave as well, because it is for you the sign you can do the same thing.

I will keep my stance no matter what. This community was shit when I joined and it still is. I have no false hopes. But there are still some positive things I see and thanks to that I don't give up on everything and don't go completely insane thanks to actions of others.

Finally you accepted it. I'm agree in a few points about your idea to improve but it doesn't mean I need to accept the abuse of a few against us

You don't accept the abuse of the few against you, so you abuse them yourself. I try to improve the situation in the long run and that does mean working together even with people who are using you.

Elaborate

Once again, the war is not the reason he may get a Motion of No Confidence against him. The fact that he bypassed congress is.

So congress is not the entity that wants to keep you bored, just so you know...

That wasn't done to odan was it? The only reason he did "escape" was my reluctance to immediately step down as commander otherwise he would have done the same; Taking a decision himself while congress needed to approve according to the law. Not saying its the same impact but the methodology, looking at this single issues alone, is alike. So I'm curious if they will be measured by the same standards.

No, but the circumstances are clearly different. In this case it was rather clear that a vote was needed. In odan's case it was debatable whether it was "daily management" or not, and the previous replacements of the commander also hadn't involved congress.
ALL previous NE declarations have involved a congress vote. There can be no doubt that this is the usual way of doing this. So by the same standards, this was more serious.

And now when we are going to win, what now??? Please shut up and fight!

I'm very thankful of the French help we're getting. I don't know what they spent on COs, but they deserve our gratitude.

But for the MoNC the actual result of the war does not really matter. Well, if we lose it might be blamed on your lack of following procedure or incompetence, and might be weighed against you. But in principle the lack of following procedure is the thing that congress really has an issue with. The rest is details.

Sadly you have no clue what the actual problem is Shtula...

Five people have been active on the forum and you still think that the forum is more important than the game? We have to play, I dont have time to argue with you there for a month.

You don't even have any power ingame so disregarding the forum where you actually can subject it is a bad idea.

And do you have that power Tannsvaal or Odan? What make you special? Please tell us because until now I just see a small group of friends doing a shit job destroying what you guys call democracy which is nothing more than a few rules who are abused by an expat, the worst cp ever elected in Netherlands and current commander in DAF and a non funtional income to not say a shit finance state or money to win shit wars like this one against eUK

Yep awesome work, but you are the only right, you are the truth and the only one with a few who can make real statments, What a joke

You think? I started a war without forum. Lets see the votes.

And how did it not come with a vote on your impeachment along with it you say?

Who needs a dead forum controlled by people who abuse of their positions as moderators? I think no one

No clue on what was going on (or not) on forum, but clearly this attack on UK is to the liking of orion. If we want to be part off an alliance (and have some action at the same time) clearly this helps. Especially as our fighting "force" has declined very hard over the last month or so. I even doubt with this war we get back to the level we had before the previous gov. I think we lost quite a few (fighting) players permanently over the last month given our statistics 🙁

The war with the UK is no problem at all, just the way our CP is handling the situation.

Excuses, thats the word.

Yeah well that's not a real surprise as we both know communication skills are not among the best with this CP as we noticed when he wanted to run for CP while in VVN a while back. And although I don't agree on the way he dealt with decisions back then and suppose he acts the same being CP we'd better look at what it brings us as a nation. I think what's happening now is profitable for us in the game itself which I think is more important than our internal games. For eNL's soldiers it might however already be to late. But one can hope...

If we only take a look at the decisions itself and never to how these decisions are made, then what are we doing? Just approving decisions because it seems the right one? Who says it is the right one? That is the reason we have laws and procedures so we have a general framework which we can apply on every new situation to get a legitimized decision. If we do what you say we should do, we get biased decisions depending on who screams loudest.

Those laws and procedures are way to extensive Spir Tus as it takes ages debating. Apart from that it seems (again; Not knowing what exactly happened as its a forum issue) we risk using two different standards depending on who it is against. But perhaps it ain't yet I doubt it.

They are not extensive enough! That's the problem imo. There is too much room for discussion left for the 'common sense' to decide on. There is no common sense. Debating and discussion should be about general situations and laws, to act the right way in a specific situation.

The example is this debate. The general procedure rules aren't followed, so there is an impeachment vote. Simple as that. Some people make this vote a discussion about the war itself, but that doesn't matter. It is about not doing what the people of the Netherlands in the past decided the general law should be.

I don't believe there is a double standard. There is more opposition right now (but only just right now, no activity of the opposition this month other than this debate). That is due to the close election results and the responsibilities the congress members of the opposition parties take. But there are some parties who have congress members who don't give a fuck about our country, even when their candidate loses. They don't check the government like they should, which results into a different situation when there is no opposition at all.

I don't like to be specific, but that helps better to understand my point. ReL, UNP and VN congress members don't check governments of I&W and DemNL if they are in the opposition and odan is CP (of course a lot of exceptions), while DemNL and I&W check the governments of ReL and UNP extenisvely when they are in the opposition and Shtula is CP (also here exceptions). If there are double standards, that is due to the lack of interest of the inactive congress members.

That doesn't mean governments of I&W and DemNL aren't checked. They are, but a bit less critical by their own party (which is logical). Still in DemNL at least we aren't afraid to criticize our own people and actions, including governments.

Are you guys crying because all this war wasnt not discussed on a dead forum? Really? Wow!! great expectations!!

Just putting it up to a vote. When some congress members lose confidence, they can ask for an Motion of no confidence. That is what happens and that's what we are voting for. Not much discussion needed. If the government loses the support of the people who voted this government in office, there is a vote and he will be replaced or not, depending on the outcome.

Some people are looking at the war behind this, but how and what is the decision of the government. If the government gets green light of the congress, we, the government, can war whatever we want. We can't now, because there wasn't green light. Waiting for the results, move on or make room for the replacements.