To merge or not to merge?
Fhaemita The Apostate
Recently a new party United Netherlands Party was launched. As the name implies one of their (main) stances is to reunited eNetherlands and eBelgium. This article is also a revisiting a topic I have written about before in an article with the same name To merge of not to merge. That was almost five years ago and this time I will take the opposite side, siding against such merger. In that five years a lot has changed the stances of the countries, alliances, the people and also very important the game mechanics.
For those who were not around back in 2009, eNetherlands and eBelgium for a time merged under the name United Netherlands The merger between the two countries was proposed because of a PTO threat by a spanish group who called themselves Las tropas imperiales who had taken the majority of the congress seats in eBelgium. Most of the citizens moved in United Netherlands but some left for the eUK. The merger lasted until Frebruary 2010 when a Romanian group who named themselves 'The Group' with the help of EDEN and by American Seal Team Six "liberated" eBelgium.
Game Mechanics
Since back in the day when our two countries were merged there have been some big changes one of those being the game mechanics. Back in the day a resistance war was much harder, one citizen has to pay 50 GOLD plus 0.25 GOLD per citizen residing in the region so if you knew a resistance war was going to be started you had to move as many people to that region to make it more expensive. Back then there was also no determination so it did not get easier when a region was held by another country for a very long time.
Would there be a merger in these times there would be a couple of problems. One of those are resistance wars, with determination resistance wars medals and freedom fighter medals we would be fighting resistance wars almost around the clock with no no chance of actually beating the resistance wars especially when determination is high and lots of people fighting for their freedom fighter and resistance wars medals. Although it would be good for true patriot it would we would not be able to help allies as much as we like or should.
Until recently before the new dictator addition to the game another problem was presidential elections, unlike in 2009 there are still presidential elections but now with the dictator the president has no power and it isn't a problem anymore. There need to be a dictator in the country that merges in the other, this makes that country very vulnerable for Military Take Overs. You would need to reset the determination of the dictatorship or you might face a Military Take Over and this goes for both the wiped country and the country that the other country merged into. All other elections also keeps going on but that is of lesser importance
The countries & communities
One of the main obstacles besides game mechanics are the difference stances of our two countries, eNetherlands is pro Asteria while eBelgium is on the opposite side. recently there was talk about a pro Asteria alliances that included eNetherlands and eBelgium but eBelgium decided not to join and went the opposite way because of Asteria countries having used eBelgium as a landing ground too often recently. Being on opposite sides makes a merger that more difficult one side would need to give up their position.
Both countries have their internal struggles and can hardly be called homogeneous both have factions. in eBelgium you have "the elite" and "the pto'ers" and in eNetherlands you also two sides although since Iron and Wine is only a shadow of what it used to be and Democratisch Netherlands moved more towards Revolution et Libertas and the fighting has become less prominent just as the fighting in eBelgium has become less prominent since installing a dictator.
If you merge you also have the questions of the Walloons, this was also an issue with the first merger. Many of them do not speak English or barely speak English. So even if you did everything in three languages Dutch, English and French there would still be a language barrier seeing discussion ingame, on the forum and irc are generally done in English. This would mean many of the Walloons would leave, most likely to French as many of them already do.
Merging would also mean all people from one country would have to get citizenship in the other country this would be quite the project because of people who not want to leave, people who disagree with the merger and do not want to leave, people who do not give a shit like two clickers. Merger would most likely mean just a small group of people those who are active would merge into the other and not even all of the active people will because under the active citizens you will have people who disagree. This will mean that most people will be left behind and making the merger most likely not even worth while.
Also new citizens are an issue, the last merger in 2009 it was easy people would get Netherlands citizen if a person started in a eBelgian region that was occupied by eNetherlands. Game Mechanics have changed and they would still get eBelgian citizenship. It would be very confusing for new citizens to explain why one country is "occupied" by the other. You would need to inform and educate new citizens of what is going on and even then there is a good chance they will not understand or agree.
Finally the issue of who is merging into who, like said the previous time eBelgium merged into the eNetherlands because of the Spanish PTO threat by spaniards. It would only be fair that if this would happen that that eNetherlands would be merging into eBelgium. This might be a sore point because of a lot citizens of eNetherlands especially those who want this merger are very nationalistic and I am not sure if they would agree with eNetherlands merging into eBelgium.
Solution?
Is there a solution? a Full merger like United Netherlands Party wants is in my opinion not an option. There are too many issues both with ingame game mechanics and the differences between the two countries. I do think there is a compromise a union like that of Germany and Denmark. Both countries work together very closely but both have their own dictator, president and government. Some of the issues that I listed earlier i this article will still be an issue but it would be a better solution than a full merger between our two countries.
The main difference would still be our countries being on different sides and I do not think either side is willing to compromise and willing to switch side for both countries are on the side that they are for a good reason. I start could be made with more cooperation of some sort but because of the differences in allegiances and allies that will even be very difficult. There have been months of cooperation between the two countries but it has not been stable or long term it always dependent on who was president. Some presidents wanted to cooperate some wanted war between our two countries so peace and cooperation never lasted long.
Who knows eventually some day in the future, I do think small countries like us should stick together but for now I do not see this happening anytime soon.
Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
Former President of eBelgium
Former President of eNetherlands
Former citizens of eUnited Netherlands
Comments
To merge or not to merge?
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/2555454/1/20
PEACE-GC BEST ALLIANCE
but traitorfag beldutchian doesn't have the same ring to it
MERGE UNDER GLORIOUS GARMTATORSHIP
vsecomment+
votado
Fake Swiss
please say hi to David from me.
No, I don't want to ruin his day
aren't you fake dutch?
No, I'm Swiss, but a difference of you I'm not claiming something I'm not and I will not
Interesting read, voted.
I fully agree with you. It is very unlikely an idea like this is going to work. It will even be very hard to get closer to each other, but I personally hope this will happen in time.
I don't get it why people are advocating this idea of a merge between Belgium and NL. There are a lot other countries with who a merge for both is more likely than Belgium - Netherlands. We just differ too much right now.
Not interested into any mergers;
We are Catholics; you are Protestants, it's best it stays like it is, the mentality of the people is quite different to be merged into one melting pot.
In all my years of dealing with Belgians and the occasional merger talk (after the 'successful' merge) I've not even heard an appeal to religion before. Lol.
But that is the only thing that unites RL Belgium in reality. It's not joke. 😛
Don't generalise too much. The southern part of NL is also Catholic. And if you were to ask me my religion, I would say I'm a Catholic, although I definitely don't visit church on a weekly basis...
And you're right that it seems to affect the mentality of people. But in NL we don't have any Christian religion issues anymore. Mostly everyone gets along. The reason why I'm adding Christian is that some people seem to have issues with Muslims... So stating that a melting pot of religions is already succesfully achieved would be false.
I'm a Sunnite, come at me bro
It wouldn't work.
eBelgium stronk!
Just making dramas
Voted!
A merger always remains an interesting idea. But for a game with a changing player base, it's difficult to keep both countries interested in being together. That's what went wrong with the last union.
Also the game itself adds some complications. A union has to be under the flag of one of the countries, making it look very much like that country just took over...
Compared to the old situation there are some advantages of a union, most notably the resource bonuses, and the ability to keep seperated governments through a dictatorship.
RWs are easier nowadays, but also offer the opportunity for a simple internal training war and determination reset, and a small profit.
I definitely think that if we were to consider a union, we should be aware of the involved challenges and agree on ways to circumvent these, and both populations should really be like 90% in favour of it.
So, I'm quite neutral with regards to a union. Germark is proving that it is possible. But we cannot afford any internal disagreement. And that's indeed something for which the people are the most important. If we cannot work together it cannot work...
I really expect you out of any government if you think this merge can work
I definitely don't believe it can work today...
But it is absolutely not impossible that we can unite sometime in the future. We already have a great history together.
But what's needed before we can get to a union is a lot of work. We must have a similar foreign policy, and we all need to believe we're better off with a union than without...
Once there is sufficient support, there are also some complicated matters regarding finances. If we maintain 2 govs, how to divide the tax income fairly?
And if we form one gov, how to deal with our current assets?
It definitely is not an easy process. But a union can be beneficial, and I don't think we should be scared by these challenges.
You forgot the most important thing: differences between two different viewpoints from both communities
I find that a very vague term... I definitely mentioned a couple of them indirectly. But if you can give some examples of differences that will really form a problem, maybe you should just mention them.
The Dutch community don't share the same points of view of the Belgians, it's a the biggest problem for me, more than the cc, etc
Different viewpoints = different perspectives. It can also be great to work together...
Of course some of the gaps have to be bridged, which is something that is hard to achieve on the short term, but once you start talking about a few months, quite a lot is possible.
"Because of Asteria countries having used eBelgium as a landing ground too often recently."
he he he he . Not just Asteria used you as land strip. But anyway, I guess apart from them trying to be populists no one else is seriously thinking on a merge.
Which countries not Asteria sided are you thinking about ?
Chile
Chile first wanted to AS Belgium,(to have a safe place to land) but finally AS'd France directly. They then occupied Belgium to slow down their kick out of Europe, with our agreement.
Way different from Asteria countries such as Montenegro, Japan, and Argentina coming as ennemies.
I do completely agree on everything written above, except when you say that the alliance including the Netherlands and Belgium was going to be Asteria sided. It was meant to be a regional alliance which would let countries chose their side, but was meant for mutual protection
This article has provided me with a slightly clearer vision. I do not think language or religion or these issues are a barrier to think of a joint effort between us, I think there are deeper issues that make the difference, as they are the allies that both countries have.
But I honestly don't think we have many differences, only the popular will and the desire of a union to be carried forward for the benefit of both nations.
First of all thank you for opening the debate. It is always good to discuss important subjects! I would like to react of a few points of you.
'One of the main obstacles besides game mechanics are the difference stances of our two countries, eNetherlands is pro Asteria while eBelgium is on the opposite side.'
There are two ways to look at obstacles, you can see them as immovable problems or you can see them as challenges. I prefer the last view. The relationship between eNetherlands and eBelgium are very old indeed and we have a past together. However I don't want to look too much to the past, I want to look to the future! After the betrayal of Germany the NSPP fell apart, because countries no longer knew which sides they were on. United Kingdom became one of our best allies after months of diplomacy and now we occupy their regions. Relations change fast in the eWorld, so it is important to have close neighbors that will stay your ally no matter what will happen. Even when we will join another alliance, it will be good to remain friends. We would be able to benefit from the communication we would have with each other. In the past countries have been in enemy alliance as well, remaining friends.
'Both countries have their internal struggles and can hardly be called homogeneous both have factions.'
When it comes to external danger we should all look the same direction. For example: I was against the invasion of the United Kingdom, but I fought hard for our country on the battlefield. I might not agree with a sitting president, but I will never betray my country! If we don't agree with a decision we should take action in congress, but never ever let your country fall! The eNetherlands and eBelgium should stand shoulder to shoulder, side by side, looking towards the same direction when one of our nations is in danger! Best situation would be of course to be in the same alliance, but this is not necessary.
'Many of them do not speak English or barely speak English.'
We could publish in three languages, more diversity means more power.
'Merging would also mean all people from one country would have to get citizenship in the other country this would be quite the project because of people who not want to leave, people who disagree with the merger and do not want to leave, people who do not give a shit like two clickers.'
Just leave a dictator in the other country that manages the situation. Game mechanics made things way more easy.
'Is there a solution? a Full merger like United Netherlands Party wants is in my opinion not an option.'
Like we have stated before, we want a United Netherlands yes, but we are realistic as well. We want to take small steps and start by working more together, like with the university that will soon start. On many ministries we would be able to work together to get better contacts in the eWorld. So we could merge on different ministries. A full merge in the future? Maybe or maybe not, but we will do everything to let our communities grow closer.
you are not the CP lol
so what do you mean with ministries
Why do you say that I am not the CP? I am not claiming that anywhere.. Working together on ministries was just an example, we in UNP will start with our own initiatives to give the example.
it only works if admins approve a merge with cc, name and citizens. (= a whole new nation with new name and cc)
eNL can't handle a internal struggle over points like the NL flag currency, and United Netherlands name.
(as I remember there where several ebelgians gone mad because it was all NL and to few BE.)
It looked in-game as though eNL has conquered eBE, so especially to new players it didn't feel like a union. And since eRep was actually growing in those days, there were quite some new players.
The trouble is that eNL typically is always slightly bigger than eBE, so when a union is formed it always makes more sense to do it under the eNL flag. Unless the admins would be able to really cooperate.
Those days they at least helped us rename our country so that it really was United Netherlands in-game. That already helped a bit. But yeah, the flag and currency were NL's...
And indeed people were of the opinion that the name still sounded too much like just the Netherlands, and had no real Belgian part in it...
So if we were to unite again, we should definitely come up with a better name...
Might as well go ahead and create the fookin EU while you're at it
dont do it fam they playing u.
Too much text. Wont read all this Belgian propaganda! 😉
Merge !!!
Bad propaganda of my party colegues Fahemita !!!