CAF and private militias - a point of contrast
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by olivermellors
Lavis Knight is a smart fellow who contributes greatly to our community. Recently he highlighted, in his usual well reasoned style, the similarities between the CAF and TCO in an article arguing that they are both private militias. There are indeed many points of similarity. For what it is worth, I thought to underline a point of contrast.
The operational commander of the CAF is the “head guy”. He reports to no one. He executes orders given by the president. He can give orders on his own. Though he reports to no one, he is subject to discipline and removal. There are two avenues for discipline/removal. One is purely internal, invoked by the Military Advice Council. The other, however, involves civilian review and oversight: the Supreme Court of Canada.
The CAF Code of Conduct provides that an operational commander may be removed by the Court, sitting as a court-martial (the CoC spells it “marshall”). How to begin such a case has never been tested. Who may begin such a case has never been decided. It may be possible for an ordinary citizen to seek removal of the operational commander. It seems likely that the president could come to court if he/she felt removal was necessary. If such a case were ever brought, it would be for the court to decide whether there were grounds, and this would include interpretation of the Code of Conduct.
The CAF therefore appears to be significantly different from other military organizations in at least this: their members, even the highest ranking, are subject to civilian control exercised through the court which is independent and which determines the law to be applied. Of course there are other levers of civilian control: the executive issues orders and the legislature issues money.
Whether these differences are real or illusory I leave to the reader.
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True dat.
Sneaky sneaky Beeman gets first!
So, since HC keeps all of it's operations "Top Secret" in the name of National Security, How is a civillian supposed to use their tool, known as the Supreme Court, to initiate removal?
And to that point, what power does the "Court" have to obtain documents relevant to such a course of action
Sort of a Chicken and the Egg situation..
CAF needs reform.
The CAF also receives a lot more public money.
😁^
reasonable questions rolo. Here are possible answers.
The public finds out about things in various ways. When stuff goes really bad, "leaks" are likely. Heck, in ecan "leaks" are likely even when stuff is going good. Of course service members may wish to initiate a case themselves. Hard to know precisely how things might occur, though the record to date seems to be pretty good.
The power to obtain documents is something which a court would decide at the time. But what it says it has power to do and what it is able to do may be different. That is when you have a very clear demonstration of whether the service is a private organization. For my part, in the present circumstances, i tend to think that any reasonable request/order would be complied with immediately. Perhaps reluctantly, perhaps not. But complied with. I may be dreaming.
I hope you are not dreaming, but in the end I think you are...
One should bring a case against the HC or some member for the Longswords Rebellion as a test case...
One would think in the discovery stage alone, the long awaited and hidden thread would have to be released
In your legal opinion, how would one accomplish this?, and what rights/possible hurdles would the court have to overcome to see this thread released, and then the possibility of more charges being laid due to it's contents?
I hope you will understand that i can't give legal advice given my present job. I have written about LSR extensively in the past however. But on the general point you raise it may be of interest to know there is presently a case involving the CAF before the court. Previous issues of this paper provide some detail. Full details are on the forums available to those who have access.
We are also getting a bit far afield from the topic of the article 🙂
Well the topic being the Court can be used as a check and balance on the CAF
While that all sounds good on paper, in practicality, we have never seen any success in the courts in this regard, probably due to ignorance on how to actually proceed
Rolo: you may be absolutely right. If this article helps to raise awareness it will have served its purpose. If it leads to further thought/exploration/discussion, I am well payed for my effort. Thank you for your contribution.
Role Players 😁^
trollololol
The only way to kill a Role Player is with more Role Play
beating them at their own game is like beating them with their own shoe...
rolo: answering your questions, treating you with dignity and common respect is called "courtesy", not "role play". It may be that the instinct to courtesy will eventually be beaten out of me with a shoe. When it happens i will behave as you do. Until then, i will behave as I was raised to.
kind regards
😁 That wasn't a shot at you personally or this thread
More of an answer to why I think the court is a waste of time, yet I still show a passing interest in it's operation
CAF are a bunch of Role Players, only way to keep them honest is by engaging them in the role-play forum known as the supreme court
Role Play punishments only matter to those who Role Play
Débat intéressant.
Il ne faut pas oublier que le CoC des CAF est une création du HC. De sorte, que le contrôle Législatif, nonobstant le Funding Cap, est inexistant et vu la composition des membres du congrès à chaque élection cela restera surement le cas pour un bon bout de temps encore.
En ce qui concerne le peu de pouvoir de contrôle que le CoC octroie à l'Exécutif et au Judiciaire, c'est illusoire et dans les faits, il n'a jamais été exercé. Lorsque ce sera le cas, il y a de bonne chance que le HC adopte un nouveau CoC pour se protéger davantage. Cette tactique a déjà été employé il n'y a pas si longtemps après tout.
CAF needs reform. Indeed.
"The other, however, involves civilian review and oversight: the Supreme Court of Canada."
Oliver - you still haven't done anything to establish the Supreme Court's legitimacy as you proposed to do - if you can't, all is moot
The court issued its judgement on the constitutional amendment last sunday night. The amendment failed, the court remains enshrined in the constitution.
the other aspects of legitimacy include "doing the work" which is detailed in past and future editions of this paper.
There is also the "public respect/love/devotion" to the institution, which will take more than the week we have been at this.
thank you for your contribution.
the difference is simple, caf goes for government issues and orders only, the militia don't.
A question I have concerning the funding of CAF and TCO is if they are funded 100% by eCanadian tax payers even if eCanada is not in direct conflict? If so, I recommend a reduction in funding to 25% of their current operational budget in times of peace when eCanada is not in direct conflict.
The CAF and TCO seem to be a huge strain on our budgets, where decreasing funding during peace time could save eCanadas taxpayers alot of money which could be used for other beneficial programs. Not to mention decreasing peoples dependence for that 'free' boost to their skills which not all are able to enjoy. This will cause them to find real jobs, pay real taxes, make decisions on what and where to spend their hard earned cash and have less reliance on the 'freebies' eCanadian taxpayers are currently affording them.
ok you reduce the funding, for lets say 3 months or so, as we are not directly in any war, then for some reason we got into a war, but our soldiers militia or not, aren't enough developed against the rest of the world, how would you defend your nation in this situation?
People are perfectly capable of finding the best paying jobs and the most cost effective food/weapons are they not? As well, if they so desire to increase their skills quickly they can spend their gold from various ways of obtaining it in game, or there is always the option of purchasing it. And perhaps if there were more purchases of gold admins would not that to mess with the economies as much as they do.
The top people are the top people not because they are gifted in any way, its because we keep funneling funding to a select few to bolster both their egos and stats. We should look for a time of letting people work for what they want to achieve and stop the free rides. Oh wait its not free, Canadian tax payers paid for it.
Plus its not like I see any newcomers being taken under the wing and fully funded to get their stats upto the ranks of the best, its the same ol same ol benefiting.
@ Felair, I'm not calling you a liar but what you said about following orders is untrue.
@ Virginia Hill the TCO will take care of you.
I think the point is that Virginia Hill has it figured out well enough to to need to be taken care off. No doubt the work-swap arrangement she has with GibsonSG demonstrates many people are finding ways to develop their stats by using tax-reducing measures. I have to say she raises some valid points, though not much related to the purpose of this article.
"This will cause them to find real jobs, pay real taxes, make decisions on what and where to spend their hard earned cash and have less reliance on the 'freebies' eCanadian taxpayers are currently affording them."
Do you know what you are talking about??
What you think we all dont work and just get free money everyday by some automated machine??
@JT Vanguard Sure, I know what I'm talking about as viewed from my eyes, am I not entitled to my own opinion as you are? In my opinion as a nation we are spending allot of money to bolster a few when they themselves are capable to afford glory for themselves.
At times of peace eCanada does not need to shell out the sums that we do to allow people to train as much as they do when their wallets are full and they have 10 business' they are sitting on. Funding to the CAF and TCO is not welfare while people are getting paid under the table.
As far as getting free money everyday by some automated machine. Well it's not free money, it's paid by the sweat and blood of fellow eCanadian taxpayers.
The fact that we are not at war means the government is ripping off the majority of taxpayers.
Or it could also mean we have good diplomacy. Both ends of the spectrum I guess.
As far as not being at war, I see it as a good thing. People are sitting on to many business', producing to many products and over saturating our markets.
eCanadian diplomacy is boring and selfish. If our executive and FA had any skill at all we would always be involved in a meaningful war.
I did not know eCanada had a population base to actually win wars compared to the other eCountries, and not to mention a steadfast alliance who acts promptly in offence or defense.
Skilled, coordinated diplomacy and an executive that actually served the taxpayers are the answer to your questions.
Longswords rebellion o7
Maybe the CAF and TCO are looking like they are molded the same, the difference being the CAF follows some form of order system and fights for eCan, and the TCO doesn't and was brought about by someone trying to be opportunistic.
when is this going to blow over?
@Virginia: Funding a military during peacetime is arguably more important than it is during war. To reduce the CAF's budget to 25% of it's "wartime" level would significantly reduce their effectiveness when we go back to war. If we wish to be realistic about the whole thing, it's a game of trying to keep up with the Jones' if you follow me. Other countries continue to develop their military, so if we do not we fall behind, and risk possibly becoming insignificant. While you are correct that eCanada is not a major player like the eUS or eHungary, we have still proven in the past to be a force capable of inflicting a significant amount of damage. Just because we aren't on top of the heap, doesn't mean we're on the bottom.