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I've been saying to not allow him in, this only confirms my stance

and this was just the last straw in a compiling case against accepting.

MoHA has rejected the application.

Note that it's impossible to accept 2 requests, all congress members have a single pass.

But sending such a PM yourself is inciting the other to perform an illegal act. In real life, criminals can walk freely if they can prove this was the case. So I would not try this procedure systematically on all immigrants. You might also trigger "unlawful" responses from good people.

fully agreed. If some1 comes with a offer it's 1 thing, provocation is another.

i agree this should not be done with every applicant. however this was a special case.

He's still a member of the Dutch Army................

I have no idea about the case against him, but if some1 is refused into our country I find it strange he isn't kicked out of our eNL Army...

well i doubt he will stay long anyway. but if decides to stay in it. the CO can always throw him out later.

and he left already 😉

Every to-be citizen must fill in a form. I dont know what hollenboer did but he has been rejected on probably good reasons

the form is just there for the basic information. in my case as MoHA i use it as the starting point for requests, if someone doesn't even fill it in he will never get accepted. (expat etc. excluded ofcourse)

Provocations like this are always bad, even if they are made for greater good.

A RL Dutch want CS, but got rejected for things done in another country.
Then he get a pm like this from CM - who would not answer for this ?

For me more bad this time done Mormon ....

From the forum discussions it is clear he is a PTO threat, this bribe just makes it even more clear that he is not to be trusted and up to no good.

I dont say we should accept him, cause pTO in UK is also bad, but provocations like this are also shameful.
Is final effect good when the methods are more than bad ?

ik was hier met de beste bedoelingen. maar goed het zal me worst wezen nu en zolang ik geen nl citizenship heb geen damage meer doen voor nl wat ik in het verleden heb gedaan. gezien mijn skills een gemiste kans. mede mogelijk gemaakt door dit parlement.

Lol, "beste bedoelingen", Lol "een gemiste kans", what to be PTO'ed?

Superkut dat we nu niet gaan overlopen met dat tuig van de balkan 🙁

Well done Lord Jale and Mormon. Good work!

So a 6 weeks old infant is misusing his power as CM (which he became being still in diapers) by luring someone into a trap and we applaud that at the cost of a potentially valid addition to our nation. I have no clue on the background of hollenboer though but the way this is handled is ridiculous.
Apart from that this infant is a thread to the safety of our nation as this time he stepped forward but who's to tell next time when approached he accepts someone or gives information from forum. No one will suspect him as he stepped forward before didn't he?

I was told about possible consequences of my act.From my perspective I did what was necessary, regarding that I will accept another player in future or give information from forum you can be sure that I will not do.
Despite all persuasion I did not made forum account, from this same moment I resign politics for all time,like I am not interested in those things anyway.For me it was not provocation it was a test, and he failed. Informations that he was a PTO in UK, that he has donated 20 gold to Netherlands I was told by Lord Jale. I argued from first minute to lord Jale that it was a bribe, that is why I asked him the same to bribe me for citizenship.

I don't know who is coaching you and told you about potential risks. I do know however in this kind of games, as simple as they are/seem, several matters are made very difficult especially on the political aspect. You don't know that in a few weeks. After about 6 months I think you'll have a way better understanding of matters or are even specialised in certain aspects. Until then it's better to stay a bit low profile and learn.

Asking someone for a payment is no proof whatsoever. If you would have asked me I would have considered it as well as have an ever increasing gold stack while you are in great need of gold for TG upgrades. With all due respect; 10 gold will hardly be noticed to me while for you it makes a lot of difference.

perhaps first read the sci topic before you say he is a valid addition.

Perhaps first read what I wrote?

I don't agree here.

The only valid addition to our nation is Mormon, who you have now scared away. There is no place for discrimination against new players in the E-NL, especially those who show initiative. New players are our future and should not be chased away for doing good deeds, even if you personally don't like it. He was only trying to help after all.

I agree that age should never matter. Weekstroms first words are very badly chosen. Mormon should not take Weekstrom's words too seriously in that respect, and I think it's a shame he left congress.

But the evidence gathered by Mormon should also not be weighed too heavily, since it was obtained by incitement.
In real life similarly obtained evidence cannot be used to prosecute someone. And there's good reasons for that.

While i agree this should not weight to heavily on top of everything else it can't be ignored either.
I think what Mormon has done, has resulted in the final drop in this case, while i do not think incitement is a way to go, in a case such as this i do not think it wrong either considering what is at stack. I think the way it has been done is wrong, and clearly should have gone trough some more members of congress or gov. But i belief the intentions where good, if he was really accepting bribe he would have and than accepted the guy's CS, and most defiantly not hand off a screenshot to someone else.

I can't judge the value of Mormon yet. I need time for that and people need to show what they can/add. This action is more of a loose cannon action than the kind of actions we need. But that's only normal when someone is new in a game and in that respect an infant. He has to learn, like we all had.

I don't know who's guiding him but he should have been protected from actions like this. Apart from the fact it proofs nothing; IF this kind of test was to be performed it should have been discussed by SCI and performed by an elder imo.

Oh; And ofc never been made public. Only known by SCI....

I don't get it. Besides the fact Hollenboer is a danger for our country, Is it illegal to offer money in exchange for cs? The acceptation of this offer (or maybe in this case the offering itself) is the illegal thing, and not the acceptation of the offer to offer money. My point is: Is it illegal to accept an offer like this? Mormon is the one who doesn't follow the law. Hollenboer is buying CS, but that is imo not his fault, but of Mormon.

Accepting money from a potential immigrant is a big no no for your information.

Bribes are not tolerated in E-NL.

Yes. But hollenboer is not accepting money, Mormond is. So Mormond is the one who is doing the illegal thing.

Where can I find something about the illegality of bribing of the point of view of hollenboer?

As far as I know Mormon has accepted nothing.

No, he is offering. But my question is not about Mormond, but what is wrong with hollenbroer buying CS?

Buying CS is illegal, but only illegal for CM to accept. Not for potential citizens to try to buy it. Then i don't see anything wrong with the actions of hollenboer.

@Spir Tus: Typically, both parties in a bribe are guilty.

"In most situations, both the person offering the bribe and the person accepting can be charged with bribery." (http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/bribery.html)


If Mormon had taken the gold and let hollenboer into our country, they both would be guilty of bribery. In this case, it was just incitement to see how hollenboer would reject and the actual bribery never occured.
If Mormon would take the gold and not let hollenboer into the country, they still would both be guilty. Hollenboer for the bribery, and Mormon for breaking their contract. Of course in such a case, both would probably want to keep it secret...

I am not a supporter of bribery, and I know in real laws bribery on both sides is bad, but I'm talking about eNL. This type of Bribery isn't prohibited (as far as I searched). Only on the side of the CM bribery is illegal, because the CM needs to comply to the SCI protocol. This has nothing to do with bribery, but with the compliance of the SCI protocol.

My question is, is there, in eNL a law for Bribery? As far as I know there isn't, and therefore it isn't forbidden (for hollenboer) to accept the offer of Mormond. Mormond is also not guilty of bribery, because bribery is legal, but if he accepted hollenboer, he wouldn't have followed the protocol.

I think these things should be clear. Everyone is saying this is wrong of hollenboer, but I can't find it is. I think bribery is bad, of both sides, but you can't just say: It is forbidden, because I don't like it. You only can say, it is forbidden, because we have all decided it is. The only way to do this is deciding in congress on every individual case of this is the case, or deciding in congress a general law or rule against bribery. You can't judge someone without any foundation in law.

Spir Tus. accepting offering bribes is just wrong, no need to have that in the law. it's just common knowledge. should we also include a law that says stealing money is wrong?

altough this case was a test to see if hollenboer would accept it. mormon was never going to accept the money.

If stealing money is possible in this game, then it is a good idea. So you want to judge people on common knowledge? I think this is a bad judicial system. When is something common knowledge and when it isn't? You can just refer to another (maybe real) law book or rules where these "common knowldege" laws are described.

There are way too less laws in eNL. It seems everyone wants to keep it simple and vague to do the things they like. If you do something wrong, and the established order doesn't like it, you will feel the consequences, and if they like you, there will be no consequences. The limitation on this kind of laws will lead to freedom for the established order to do what they want. There is no judicial system at all in eNL. The established order (people who have played this game a lot) is the judge for itself.

I'm not saying the established order is abusing its power, but i think its power is too much and can be abused. Laws are things to prevent this from happening.

Well if you argue like that, for the CM it is also perfectly legal to accept the bribe. The SCI protocol is a protocol, not a law...

Regarding the amount of laws in eNL: that is intentional. We don't want to define all obvious things. I mean, yes, you can write stuff like "stealing is not allowed", but that also means you have to have punishments for those sort of crimes.
And that's not the direction we want to go... That means we'd need to reintroduce a court, etc. And preferably filled with a very active, unbiased and knowledgable jury, but not with congress and gov members.
I can already tell you that such an ideal court isn't possible.

And the power eNL has is very limited. In-game we cannot punish at all, except by very indirect measures, such as PP placing certain candidates in the lowest position on their candidate list. Or by asking the admins if they can interfere, which they typically won't.

You want to punish people who are doing things they cannot do because other people say they cannot do those things instead of you want to punish people who are doing things they cannot do because the whole country has said in the past everyone who are doing those things should get punished. With the latter you are taking the personal aspect out of the consequences.

I don't know hallenboer, but suggest he did something some people didn't like in the past, like opposing or cursing those people, then those people will for sure say this bribing is bad, because it is bribing. If someone else is doing this, people could say it isn't a bad thing to do. Laws are for preventing arbitrariness. I think everyone should be treated equally in equal circumstances. If this is impossible, I think a system where we do exactly the opposite is not my favorite alternative.

Too few laws? Are you serious? Even more and you need to take classes to use them in a proper way. Our SCI protocol already covers the question if someone can be let in or not. And the congress members are smart enough to let any bribery weight in the length of the blacklist that follows.

Different situations keep popping up over and over again. Laws can be sufficient for one situation, but they can really slow down another. If things can be handled by common sense in the first place there is no need for a law about it.
That works for bribery, but for stealing as well. Who in his right mind would wave a theft on our treasury of just because it wasn't in the law book?

Laws are there for things that aren't that straightforward like budgets and voting procedures. And sadly it already fails at that.

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Mormon The Legend is no longer a congress member.

Probably due to the criticism he received here, which I think is too harsh on him.

I don't think the evidence he gathered this way carries much weight, so it would've been better not to have sent this PM. But it also did no real harm...
Furthermore Mormon was yet inexperienced, so still has to learn. We all have had to go through that initial phase, and as they say: you learn the most from your own mistakes. But mistake is probably a big word for it, seeing he himself had been incited to send this PM by Lord Jale, if I understand it correctly.

I know he want to do good thing, but the methods are mooooooore toooo muuuuch disgusting. But as he is low level we should educate him, instead to brand him ...

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I must take most of responsibilities for past happenings at my own back.
Mormon did nothing wrong, 99% for his actions is my mistake.
As yesterday in late hours I was looking for new forum users, I found one form which I was not able to solve myself. One player was saying to donate his reward money to NL. I asked superiors how can I do that , and what I should write as answer at forum topic.
After a while I found at forum topic about this player want to come back in NL. Reading all comments I had found that he was sending pms to Congress members to accept him.
Mormon is young player and I told him absolutely not to accept that player. Also this player was member of our Military unit, was wearing DAF avatar and being in RL from NL.
As we talked Mormon decide to do what he did, I told him we risk too much. If all went good, me and Mormon would be the ones who at least one part of population would not trust. Who would trust him if he was refused. Many would think he was going to sell CS for real.
I am aware that biggest fault is that I did not inform others. In my justification I can say it was too late, but anyway I could send ingame pm to President.
If anyone should take responsibility it is me, not Mormon.
So I will resign my candidacy for I&W Party President and candidacy for Congress.
As my party colleagues knows my candidature for PP was just providing another candidate to vote for, I do not have program what I would do if I got elected. In I&W The Valeyard has huge support( look last two months how many votes he had at PP elections) and he is better player than I am, so he would easily win elections.
As far as Congress I&W has many members to put in which will do job much better then I would do it.
I am putting my government position at the disposal of President, if he wants me to resign I will do that too. From now on I will not be in any future government or Congress.

But I will stay in I&W as member untill I quit playing, I&W is good party and I think that as member I will not be included in decision-making politics, but I will be able to continue my work to benefit of NL.

"I am putting my government position at the disposal of President, if he wants me to resign I will do that too. From now on I will not be in any future government or Congress."

request rejected, there is no need for that, nor is it needed that you resign your candidacy for congress and party presidency. You made a mistake, nothing really bad happened so there is no need to make a big deal out if it in my not so humble opinion.

I appreciate your support and you can always count on me in future.
As all my work is summarized in my activity, suggestions, articles.. I do not think that NL will lose anything if I resign from future Governments or Congress. All I did I will continue doing in future.
NL has players which do fine all government/congress tasks given to them, so my absence no one will not notice.

Personally I think Lord Jale is the type of citizen we need, and active one who will stick around. It would be such a shame if I had to lose my SS for trying to help.

Your resignation is still rejected Lord Jale so get back to work and I also want to see you on the ballot for the congress elections. Listen to El Presidente 😛