[AFA] Who's Afraid of The Big Bad Wolf?
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by Toto Schillaci
Hello everyone.
Although this is my first article ever, I won't take much time for introducing myself to you. I come from intermarriage, from Serbian father and Dutch mother. I won't hide it as, now, I am proud member of AFA and that question would certainly be asked during the time.
But I don't write this to talk about myself, I write this article in a try to make one more movement towards native e-born Americans, explaining that AFA is not a threat to eUS.
I am born in eNetherlands, although I work and live in RL Serbia. I came in eUS related to Cipelici, and I quickly joined AFA because that was the party where the most of the Serbian players had already been joined. But, over the time, I resigned from the party as the goal of AFA (or Cipelici, better to say) was really unclear. Before that, I always voted as I have been told to vote from the top, I was really good party soldier, but then I started to ask myself what are we really doing.
There was no plan, no transparency in work, eSerbian gvt never said that Cipelici were doing something for Serbia (but only for themselves). So, after some time, I realized that the only plan is to do PTO, get treasure keys, national organizations, rob the country and make some troll fun with Congress laws. After that, the job would be finished as I don't believe that it could be possible to repeat it in another month. Well, in short, it would be something similar to what HanibalLA did to eSerbia several months ago...
But it wasn't my game, so I left...
Soon, I lost the interest in the game generally, so I logged in just few times per month, to see if there was something new in the virtual world. One day, I saw that Cipelici had left USA, but that AFA was still active, and that there still were few Serbian players in it. I started to gather information and I realized that I had a chance to get more involved in party organization as it was obvious that Cipelici were payed to leave and that they got new spheres of interest (Philippines, more precisely).
So, I joined a group of Serbian players (I mostly contacted with Dr_Devil and Strahinjic Banovan) who were still in contact with RGR and we started the job.
In November (if I remember correctly), we contacted Josh Frost, who had been finished the job of Cipelici's departure short time before that. He told us few tips which we could use to get more reliable, but he also stated that we couldn’t negotiate while we were cooperating with RGR. After discussion between Serbian leaders in USA, it was decided to end cooperation with RGR in order to become suitable for negotiations with the authorities.
We made an offer which I present to you in a screenshot:
These were the conditions which were prepared rather according to Frost’s tips, but we also put few conditions which were our goals in that time - a place in Congress and getting more passports for Serbian players. Exactly and only that clause was rejected, which, honestly, was expected by us.
So we tried really hard to give all assurances that we won’t break any of USA rules, we also withdrew demand of getting paid by USA gvt, but it wasn’t good enough.
Eventually, the negotiations were over without an agreement. That brought us to RGR again, as it turned that he was right when he had told us that our attempts wouldn’t be successful. We tried for few months to attract new members who would help us in the AFA ATO mission, but PTO-ers were always numerous.
Meanwhile, I was promoted to the position of the AFA SG.
That gave me the power to negotiate directly to the US officials. And again, I realized that cooperation with RGR had to be over or else AFA could hardly be ever treated as legitimate party in USA. That brought us to the official statement where we publicly announced the end of partnership with RGR and making new party policy.
We knew that people would be doubtful, but we had finally done the first step no matter how much it had been hard for us. The statement was published after the last CP elections (February 2014.), as our wish was to get in the new negotiation process during this term. We weren’t successful in appointing negotiations before party elections as PotUS Wild Owl never answered me on my IGMs. We hoped that PTO was cancelled maybe, but that didn’t happen.
After being PTO-ed again, we doubled our efforts to begin with negotiations. We were successful this time and, as a matter of coincidence or not, Frost was again the one who negotiated with us, directly put on that place by CP. I will put the whole dialogue between him and me in few screenshots:
After this, I weren’t contacted by Frost anymore, so I presumed that meant that negotiations were finished.
For me, one of the most important parts is where I ask him what else we should do in order to become legitimate political party.
We were told before that we couldn’t cooperate with RGR, OK we had accepted it. We were told that we couldn’t go to the Congress, OK we had accepted it. We promised to respect USA laws and, according to that, to learn more about them so we can be fully integrated in the society…
What else? Is there anything else we should do? We ask from you to tell us how to get integrated…
And what was the answer? “Go away, we will give you some money…”
Of course that we had not accepted it!
We strongly believe that eUSA is the country of democracy and that everyone has the oportunity to show himself as a true e-patriot. We may have different political views than majority, but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't respect the will of that same majority. And that is the main reason why eAmericans don't have to be afraid of us. Because we are one of them, we are one of you.
We are eAmericans and we want to fight fair and honestly for our believes as we truly believe in the freedom of speech and the breakdown of the dictatorship. And that is what it seems to be happening in eUSA today. Otherwise, don't you think that it would be so silly that all the leading structures (top 5 parties, the Government, PotUS) present the group of approximately 70 people as one of the main problems for country's stability?
You all know that.
It's just the question whether you want us as political opponents and possible partners, or you need us as political enemies, if you know what I mean...
It's much more comfortable for authorities to talk about successfull AFA PTO than to discuss about the biggest work taxes in eWorld (if we don't count such a „major power“ as South Africa). For example...
Sincerely,
Toto
PS
Sorry if my grammar or spelling are incorrect at some places, but I am sure that majority of you can understand me pretty well.
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For shout:
[AFA] Who's Afraid of The Big Bad Wolf
http://tinyurl.com/ndptuh3
You think pack of 30 big bad wolves?
Big bad vote!
op op
Jel onaj na trecoj slici, treci s leva Sloba?
Is the man on the third picture(third from the left) Slobodan Milosevic? 😃
"If you lie down with dogs, you will get up with fleas". It's too bad that you associated yourself with RGR for so long, that many of you are here without having gone through the proper IES channels to obtain citizenship, but there you have it. The AFA was such a thorn in the eUSA's side for so long that it will never be seen as legitimate. You did that to yourselves. If you want legitimacy I suggest that you leave and then reapply for citizenship through IES. Anything short of that just won't cut it in the eyes of most of the eUSA's citizens.
I didn't even know that there was IES when I was coming to USA.
I won't change my CS, you won't give it to me another time. If you would give it to me, why don't you just legalize my current status? There is no more than 30 Serbian players in USA, we stayed here because we want to develop as eAmericans, we ask and search for the ways how to integrate.
But, on all of our questions, you tell us to go away. I really though that you are democratic place, but instead, it seems like USA is a brood of chauvinism.
You brought all of your troubles on yourselves. When you act as a criminal why should you be surprised that you are treated as one?
And how exactly am I acting as a criminal? Or my friends from AFA?
1. Your citizenship was gained without having gone through IES.
2. You gave support to an enemy of the state, RGR.
3. You participated in an attempted PTO of the eUSA.
1. OK, but I didn't know for IES when I was coming to USA and now, when I know for that law, I support that CS has to be approved through IES.
2. We supported him as political partner, when gvt told us that we can't be accepted while we cooperate with him, we stopped that cooperation.
3. If you read my article well, you would see that I left AFA because the goal of AFA's acting wasn't clearly determined. I rejoined it after Cipelici had left.
Now you are speaking of yourself as an individual. In your article your argument is that the AFA as a collective is not a threat to the eUSA and should be accepted. So I addressed the collective. You as an individual may be ok, I don't honestly know you. If you as an individual are interested in integrating I would suggest joining a major party, joining a major eUSA MU, and becoming active within those communities. The AFA as a collective is too tainted by past actions to ever be trusted. As individuals you may be in time, if your actions show reason to trust.
OK, your words have sense. But what if none of major parties weren't proposing politics for which I would vote for? I mean, you have parties which are not different each other by anything except member number...
Is there any party which would fight for lower taxes?
Would that be a sin if there would be a party who would propose such a thing and would it be called as a national threat because of other opinion?
I would again suggest joining a major party and becoming active within it. If you have valid concerns over issues such as taxation, express your opinions with solid arguments and build support for your views within the party. It will take time, but it can make a difference. As an added benefit you will get to know the people in your party, and they will get to know you as well. Because of what Free Area did in AMP, you will face an uphill climb to gain trust. But again, that is part of the price of your past associations.
With the current situation, any party comprised mostly of AFA members is going to be seen as a threat. You could try starting a sixth party and advocating your views through the media but that will be an uphill battle, especially with the baggage of being former AFA. The AFA name is permanently tainted because of the past, so I would strongly suggest not keeping it. It also does not help your cause any that the AFA party president belongs to a Serbian MU. If you truly want to gain acceptance in the eUSA you need to show that you are committed to the eUSA. Again, joining a major eUSA MU and becoming active within it will help them get to know you as an individual, not just "that guy who says the AFA has changed".
What can I say, I honestly thank you for your advices.
I am so proud of Wild Owl.
Maybe that's because you are chauvinist like him.
No chauvinism here, we've had Serbians in the eUSA who aren't blacklisted. You've been blacklisted because of your relationship with RGR and his continuous work towards a PTO, plain and simple. If you don't know the full 4+ year struggle with that player in all his reincarnations then perhaps you don't have the context needed.
Sorry, you seem legit to me but then again so did others...
C'mon, I wrote about how I left AFA when Cipelici were there, how we broke cooperation with RGR, and you accuse us for cooperating with him...
OK, but we stopped...
Now, we want you to convince you in that, give us some advices, instructions, how we can do it. Some of the other players already did that.
The problem is that we got into our PTO mess by not being cautious and judicious with citizenship and watching party membership. It's once-bitten, twice-shy. Listen, I'm sure you're a great guy and earnest and all but all it takes is a few cohorts below the scenes to orchestrate a take over of a top 5 party. Once that happens we're back to where we were months ago. No thanks.
BTW, thanks for the friendship request. I accepted it.
It's your right to be suspicious and it's my obligation to prove that you are wrong : )
Thank you for accepting the friend request : )
So... in your original negotiation, on top of a Congressman to keep granting more Serbians citizenship, you ALSO wanted 10k CC/month....
Yeah, I'm not at all surprised negotiations didn't go anywhere.
It's also not surprising that negotiations won't move forward again. Any further negotiation would pretty much fall under the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree doctrine.
"Fruit of the poisonous tree is a legal metaphor in the United States used to describe evidence that is obtained illegally. The logic of the terminology is that if the source (the "tree") of the evidence or evidence itself is tainted, then anything gained (the "fruit") from it is tainted as well."
Since pretty much every foreign member of the AFA has obtained their citizenship (meta)illegally, then any negotiations from any point of strength is unwarranted.
Well, if you know unwritten negotiation rules, you know that you try to get the best possible deal, so you offer some things that you know you can't get in order to keep ones you can get.
The interesting thing was that Frost was open to finance Serbian party, he never talked about illegally gain passports or similar stories that you are telling now. His only problem was our cooperation with RGR (which we adopted), and the place in Congress, which we rejected.
Today, we are ready to show our commitment even without participating in the Congress, but now you just try to invent some reasons for not letting us to integrate into the society.
Live in a lie that AFA is a threat, and pay the biggest taxes in the New World, if you don't understand, I can't help you.
I don't have to invent a reason, the reason is clear.
Yes, you've distanced yourself from RGR. But I don't reward a child for NOT putting his fork in the power outlet, and I also don't reward him for finally taking his fork OUT of the outlet.
Keep the distance, do something useful. You don't HAVE to have a deal to integrate, you integrate by just doing it. Good faith goes both directions.
How can we integrate if you don't allow us to? If you continue to demonize AFA and tell the people how we are "The Big Bad Wolf", whatever we say, try and do, how do you think that we can integrate?
We ask from you to tell us what useful we could do, to prove our point, and you say: "Go away!".
You are disgrace to democracy.
If you were truly willing to integrate, we wouldn't need to tell you what to do like a good little soldier. You could figure out what was necessary and just do it, like someone who was actually excited for the opportunity.
Actually, you do need to tell us, because we have done everything what was expected from us in the past. EVERYTHING.
So, if there are more new conditions, please do tell.
If you were truly willing to let us integrate, you wouldn't go around and yell: "Big Bad Wolf, Big Bad Wolf...!"
It's OK if you don't want us to integrate, but please, then say so. Show your chauvinistic face publicly.
So why do you need to be all in one party? Does it help to integrate better?
And what should we done? To get separated in 10 different parties? Of course it's easier for us to be gathered on the same place and to take care about each other... Why did Croats and Albanians in USA form their own parties?
The Croats and Albanians went through IES for their citizenship, did not support RGR, and were not part of a PTO effort.
So? Does that all mean that they have to be gathered in the same party? That's what Valiant has asked me...
That is the reason that their party is not ATOd every month.
Maybe you can be together in a party but a different party? I'm pretty new so I don't know the details, but It sounds like the govt had a problem with your current party, a big big problem even. Kinda like a scarlet letter or a branding that tells everyone who you are and it's not good.
But!
You don't have to leave each other to leave that party. I'm sorry to hear that they can't work with who's left in the party because of who left the party. 🙁
OK, I see the problem. We haven't come by regular way. But make a comparison with RL. USA has also immigrants who came from irregular ways, but some of them get a chance to become legitimate citizens of the country. Of course, there are some conditions they have to fulfill. Could we copy that to the game?
IF that offer had been accepted by eUSA gov, I would have left eUSA!
Wild Owl, thanks for answering properly to the serbs. there is no deal that they will maintain-
Frost already accepted it once, I don't know what makes difference now...
I never accepted the original offer. The fact that you guys wanted to be in the Top 5 and have Congressional seats was and always will be a deal breaker.
But that offer wasn't the same the Owl got. The offer that Owl got was the same you proposed to us...
There shouldn't be a party to 'represent the serbian people', it's ridicilous. You're nothing but a potential threat and the fact that you kept contact with RGR for so long proves your true intentions.
Disband AFA, join the bigger parties, that's the solution.
I lol'd.
If you want to integrate, start over. Disband he party, join a new party, and make like the new citizens and work hard. We do not grant parties to represent our sworn enemies. If you want to be part of the eUSA, then you are not Serbian, and Vica Versa
I can't fight the fact that I am RL born Serbian, but if you think that because of that I can't be eAmerican, then you are really shallow. There are a lot of nations in eUSA and if I renounce eSerbian nationality and country, there is no reason to treat me different then other players who live in eUSA, but aren't RL Americans.
I said nothing about RL. If all you mean is a society of RL serbians in the eUSA, then I have no beef with you. All the concern I have is over an attempt to support Serbian interests in the eUSA using a Serbian party. If you want a society of Serbians in the eUSA, then fine, but due to the current political environment, it cannot be a party. There is too much risk of Serbian sympathy. Have an MU, or an IRC chat room, no one is stopping you, but if you want to be involved in politics, choose a party with no horrendous baggage, and be a responsible citizen. No one will hold it against you that you were in this party so long as you are a responsible citizen that works for the betterment of the nation.
You were around for the Unity days, no one wants it to go back to that, and the only way to assure that those days will never return is by eternal vigilance. A party that is expressly Serbian in motive is something this vigilance seeks to prevent.
Now we are talking... That's what I wanted. To see me as a guy with whom you can exchange opinions in a quest for a solution which would satisfy both sides.
How can I get this discussion on higher level, because CP obviously thinks that it's worthless to negotiate...
Any party who demands even one seat in Congress should be vigorously stomped upon....
This isn't RL.
You don't have a "right" to participate in the eAmerican active community.
For over a year the Cipelici and the AFA group worked with Ajay, Hannibal, and many others to try and PTO the eUS. That cannot be undone or forgiven.
The offer to leave was generous, and should be accepted. There are many countries where Cipelici could have a bright future.
We are not Cipelici. You don't have to forgive them for the rest of your life as far as I am concerned. There are many people in Serbia who don't want to forgive them what they have done in Serbia, so you can't equalizing them with the whole Serbian nation.
You will not be able to integrate your party as a unit, especially not as long as you identify strongly as a group of real life Serbs.
If you want to integrate, you will need to do so as individuals, as the collective judgment against your party has passed, and I don't see it changing (whether it's right or wrong).
You will need to disband your party and integrate into eUSA on an individual level if integration is really your goal. Familiarize yourself with the eUS parties, their procedures, and the people in them, then join the one you feel most comfortable or accepted in. After that, you would need to work for trust and increased responsibility. That is what all new eUS players go through. You're free to keep your bonds and your friendships with fellow rl Serbs playing in the eUS, but it will be impossible for you to integrate as a party. Saying you want to integrate as a party unit on certain conditions is asking to be accommodated. Accommodation is in many ways the opposite of integration.
Again, if you truly want to integrate, doing so as individuals is the only way. Every one of us started as individuals and joined the existing system. Now some of us have the responsibility and power to maintain or change that system as we see fit. What is so wrong about us expecting you to take the same path, that is, if you truly want to integrate?
You have point in some way, but I could bring up some new arguments against yours, but I am so tired right now. The important thing is that finally you started to give us prepositions what should we do to become integrated, but as you can see, there are different opinions.
Because of that, I will try to write our new prepositions and publish it in article, or maybe someone from gvt makes official prepositions to us before we publish ours...
But I am truly happy to move things from the dead spot.
Thank you for your comment.
I do not deal with domestic e-terrorists. Carry on negotiating with yourself, I hope its fun.