Official TRP Debate: whither TRP?
Ealb
Greetings, fellow TRP members!
I write to you today to discuss the future of the party. Its future is not clear, but one could argue that I come not to praise it, but bury it. I come to propose TRP's subsumption by Sabai Unity Party.
This is something that has been discussed since October by some members of both parties. The veritable raison d'être of TRP was for the longest time just what its name implie😛
reform. Reform of the eThai government and defeat of the Rockman 9 regime. Well, we got that. After this, we stood for vigilance against a reversion, and we still do. Generally, we stand for the principles of liberal market democracy, even though we don't require our members to espouse them (indeed, I myself am a tepid supporter such things). However, most parties in eThailand do. Our differences with other parties are of culture and nuance, not substantive policy. In particular, some have argued that our differences with SUP amount to having a different symbol and name.
We have stood as a bloc with SUP from its creation. We backed Jack in his first bid for President, though had the reform faction won the TRP party elections in October, it would have been SUP supporting our candidate. We made up a large portion of the Roberts administration. We together supported the King administration, both during the election and after. We threw votes at each other's Congressional candidates when we could, and we spoke in favor of many of our bills, leaving room for individual disagreements.
In short, we have to a large degree been acting as a unified party even though we are not unified. I would like to see that latter point rectified. Unification has several practical points strongly in its favor.
First, it reduces complexity and overhead of Congressional voting. We would no longer be competing against each other even on paper, so vote distribution and the logistics associated therewith would be streamlined.
Second, it increases the "gravity" of the party in terms of attracting new immigrants. Right now TNT garners many new eThais simply because they want to join the largest party, even though that effectively means yielding up their voices. If we merge, we can potentially bring in a larger share of new immigrants, who we can attempt to shape and mold into ePolitically active citizens.
Finally... because it's the right thing to do. The democratic thing to do. Currently, the eRepublik political system is extremely flawed and highly undemocratic. Most pointedly, it is not possible for citizens to run for Congress unless they not only belong to a political party, but one of the five largest. By distributing ourselves over two separate parties, the SUP-TRP bloc excludes would-be voices of dissent. We limit political participation to TNT (and its offshoot party), our bloc, and one single "third party". This stifles democracy enormously. It is our responsibility to become one party in fact as well as function, so as to allow dissenting voices a chance to make themselves heard and to argue the merits of their case.
However, some might ask why I propose TRP, the larger and older of the parties, should migrate into SUP rather than the other way around.
First, because it's TRP leadership proposing the merger, and thus it behooves us to make the move. Politesse and suchlike.
Second, because if we look only at actives, our parties are actually about the same size. This does have the troubling effect of letting some would-be politicians who choose to move in and take over the shell an exaggerated voice to a degree they would not from an SUP husk, but the TRP inactives will slowly die off and drop out of the party, so unless the newcomers work to make themselves into a real party they'll faded into obscurity.
Third, because perhaps not everyone will want the merger to occur, so TRP's successor might rise from its own ashes. There's no reason a dissident voice from within the current membership cannot stay behind to change the tenor an add their voice to the eThai political choir.
Fourth, because the differences in treasuries mean nothing at the moment, and if we judge by the prognostications put forth by the admins, they'll never mean more than little. This is a true non-issue.
Fifth, because we are the older party. We have more history... and not all of it is good. Our early months gave us a reputation as a contentious party who disagreed for the sake of disagreeing. The "young Turk" reformist faction fought that and eventually succeeded in changing the party's tenor, but TRP is still remembered by some as one of the "Brazilian" parties promoting personality politics and partisanship above all else. SUP lacks this particular baggage.
Sixth, because no more TRP would sound the long-delayed death knell for the superficial aspect of the TNT-TRP rivalry. Change in membership did much to erase this, but there still exist those souls who reflexively opposes their "opposite number" not for substantive policy reasons but because they're sitting under the wrong banner. This has been much more subdued as the Brazilians-to-others ratio has changed in the two parties, but I'll still be glad to draw a line under this for once and for all.
So. Whither Thailand Reform Party? I say the annals of history. What say all you? Let's talk this through, and make our decisions. Those who agree with the above can join me in shifting to SUP. Those who find my case uncompelling can stay. It's been an honor to lead you, and I'd hope we can all continue to work together for the good of eThailand no matter what we individually chose.
Comments
Is it going to be SUP joins TRP or TRP joins SUP?
Because I agree with a SUP joining TRP, because of the age of the party and also to honor all the hard work made by the founders of TRP, Luis Carlos Prestes and Cavalcanti
TRP joins SUP from the looks of it, in order to get rid of some bad history the party has with its rivalry with TNT.
I would support the merger because the differences between the parties are, at most superficial. I am ambivalent about which name the merged party takes.
Rody, I am proposing (and SUP has concurred) that the preferable situation would be for SUP to subsume TRP. This would allow TRP to softly and suddenly vanish away, ne'er to be met with again.
And to be somewhat blunt, your agreement or disagreement is wholly irrelevant to this discussion. You left eThailand and TRP, what, 2 months back?
Not to mention that a very large part of the lingering traces of questionable reputation and petty rivalry that TRP would like to shed is that which you yourself bequeathed upon it...
I've been in support of a merge for a long time and I find this proposal favorable.
I agree wholeheartedly, it's fairly pointless to have two parties that represent the exact same ideas. A merger simplifies everything and attracts new players.
but TNT is gone basically, and a SUP joins TRP would be better, the smaller joining the bigger and not the other way around, but it is your call, it is your party............................sadly
I definitely agree with Ealb's logic and the general idea of merging the two parties as we are pretty much the same ideologically. But how that will be done is another story.
Is it more practical to "create" a new combined SUP-TRP party instead of putting one in complete extinction? This can be done by renaming either TRP or SUP into a new name that reflects the SUP-TRP heritage and have the members of the other parties migrating in that that party with the new name.
Just my idea.
Wisdom.
Rody:
Last time we did censuses of active members we came up about even in the two parties, so it won't make that much difference in terms of difficulty no matter which of the two is obliged to move.
Wisdom:
I'm fairly open. I think I'd be fine with TRP's name vanishing at this point, as it has both good and bad associated with it to a degree that SUP doesn't. But not all of us are doddering oldsters who remember these things. Kids today... So if it really is a point of pride we certainly can talk about some name change to reflect a shared heritage. To do that we'll need to drag some SUP leadership into the current discussion though. Lemme see about that, now...
For that matter, despite my above arguments I don't have iron-clad conviction that in terms of actual parties (and not just names) it's best for SUP to subsume TRP and not the other way around. This has been the model most frequently discussed by myself and Guy, but I feel we're both reasonable sorts and we should be open to convincing arguments that this isn't the best course of action.
Or I suppose everyone in both parties could up and move into the currently-defunct Thai Sabai Reform Party, whose very name seems like it was just MADE for such a merger.
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Haha Thai Sabai Reform Party does sound like "our" new name.
I personally don't really care which part joins with which, but I do agree that we should join sides and try to dominate... I'm sorry, lead eThailand.
Thai Unity Party would be better I think. I'm more along Wisdom's idea. A new name, a new beginning. A true merger! 😉
I will poll my active members when I have a momment and encourage their thoughts in response. (There silence is that running for the presidency/holidays, has prevented me from really discussing this.)
I think with the TNT exodus and the trend in Thailand has made with corruption the reason some of these parties exist is obsolete. I would view it as an opportunity to lend strength to a platform that we all agree on. I would also say it would provide an opportunity for new voices to come into play.
The last thing I wish people to think about is protection against political coups. The creation of a central bank is one way, by having a larger coordinated party we are better able to combat that threat as well.
I have posted an article for SUP party members link this article.
http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/a-message-from-the-sabai-unity-party1-718888/1
Has anyone else realized that this will put Guy Kilmore in charge of the largest party in Thailand? Salgado's departure left a lot of power in his hands. Very suspicious if you ask me.
Karlito, if you keep talking like that someone might think you're serious about it.
I’m not so enthusiastic about a fusion between Sabai and TRP. Even I agree that the two parties have no major political differences, I argue on a strategic point of view to favor a formal coalition instead of a fusion.
Thailand is once more in a crisis. It is hopefully a short-term crisis but we don’t yet now the consequences. That means (politically)
- We don’t yet see what will happen with TNT. They lost some of their active party members, Rockman is definitively dead and we (I) don’t know much about the direction of its party presidency.
- TRP and Sabai has (for the first time in Thailands history) a majority in the congress.
I argue that TRP and Sabai are stronger with two different political structures:
- We give voters and new citizens an broader alternative
- A super-party with a absolute majority in the congress could generate protest and result in a few protest voters (which we may observed in the last presidential election)
What we could try
- We can manage that one of the parties appears as the strongest one to attract new citizens
- We keep the ‘junior’ party as a strategic option (congress elections) and to avoid being to big
A question
In the case of a fusion, what would happen to the TRP structure? Can the party be deleted or remains it as party in Thailand? In that case can it get infiltrated by other members, a new party president?
I agree with you in some ways Simplicissmus. My fear is that we are actually pushing "voices" away at the momment. We are preventing other parties from garnering voice and may have some effective ideas on how Thailand should opporate. I mean, I know I'm right 😉 But I imagine someone else might think they are right too. By us merging it presents an opportunity for another voice to enter into the picture.
I do not mean to speak ill of TRP or TNT. I can only state why I did not join either. It was about personality politics. I don't even know if TNT ever had a platform. (I think they were making more sense as time went on because of Antonio's leadership.) I took the same issue with Luis's 30 point manifesto, it wasn't simple and poorly enforced. Ealb has done an excellent job in making the party more focused.
I think the only party to ever expressly state a compact platform is the SUP party and the current socialist one (I apologize, the name escapes me). I am for removing groups formed around personality politics and instead creating groups formed around idealogies (sp?).
>We give voters and new citizens an broader alternative
My concern here is that we wouldn't in fact offer new citizens an alternative, but only the appearance of one. I don't really want to emulate the TNT-Nobelis model.
>In the case of a fusion, what would happen to the TRP structure?
>Can the party be deleted or remains it as party in Thailand? In
>that case can it get infiltrated by other members, a new party
>president?
Parties are forever. Alas.
The more I think about this, the more I'm leaning towards arguing SUP should migrate into the renamed (possibly SUP, possibly something else) TRP data structure. The reason is something I tried to dismiss above, but can't really convince myself of. TRP has a lot more inactives than SUP. If the SUP data structure is abandoned by its actives, there would be no massive megaphone for any random person who wants to bring in their three friends and be president of the third largest party in eThailand. Not so with the TRP structure. We have a lot more inactives, and we'll make a much more attractive party to "acquire" because we'll give a minority faction a disproportionate number of members; only on paper, but it'll guarantee them a place in Congressional elections for probably two months minimum even if they're all alone.
I support the merger as it is a more "attractive" option to newer citizens. Many times I have seen in eUSA new players joined the USWP simply due to the rational that "most members equals strength"...which is most cases is true, so long as the party doesnt abuse such strength in numbers.
More so, a merger will make the distribution of congressmen a much more managable task, as I know in the past Guy, myself, and Ealb have attempted to strategically divide up Thailand in regards to where we were placing candidates and voters.
And finally, upon my arrival in Thailand and the creation of SUP, the TRP party has (for the most part) been a strong supporter of platforms and ideas that are active today in Thailand and have assisted myself, KK, and now Guy in implementing and maintaining such programs such as the Wellness Program, the Housing Lottery, and so forth.
One of my fellow George RR Martin fans suggested Sabai to me when I was creating the party, because Sabai means "happiness and joy" in Thai...and a united joyful/content nation is what I strove for.
Whether we change names to something more agreeable to both sides or stick with SUP doesnt matter so much that the message of Unity and creating Joy for our citizens is still our goal.
I am also leaning towards moving over TRP Data Structure with a renaming as well. I think the element of the name Sabai is important, but now that Thailand is becoming more united, we need to define what that is. I would be fine with the SRP party, but I am not sure if "Reform" is the right word. I also do not want to be confused with the politics of personality that came about.
Let's do it. Let's merge.
OK, your arguments for a fusion are not bad. I support a merge and we should maybe start the discussion about a new name.
Name elements: Sabai, unity, unification, Thailand, congress, movement, front, coalition, alliance. If we absolutely must take the "reform" aspect of TRP instead of "Thailand" for a name merger, I'd recommend a variant like reformed or reformation. A few cobbled-together efforts:
Sabai Reformation Union
Reformed Sabai Front
Thailand Sabai Front
Thailand Sabai Congress
Sabai Union of Thailand
United Sabai Coalition of Thailand
Unified Sabai Movement of Thailand
Thailand Sabai Unity Alliance
Thailand Sabai Union
Not recommende😛 e.g., Sabai Unity Coalition of Khon Kaen and Songkhla; Reformed Alliance of Thailand, Sabai; Movement for Universal Sabai in Thailand.
My vote is for "Sabai Union of Thailand"
Ealb makes a good point about the inactives, and if we're considering those it would probably be best for Sabai to migrate into a renamed TRP. Something like Thailand Unity Party or Sabai Union of Thailiand works. Or we could change Sabai Unity Party's name into ? and rename TRP Sabai Unity Party.
Union of the reforming sabai
Actually, Sabai means "comfort" or "comfortable", which is not the same as "happiness and joy" in Thai. I think your friend got the meaning slightly wrong, Jack.
It's a just mildly positive word, and not an auspicious one by any means. And "Sabai" often has negative connotation as it implies "inactiveness", "laziness", as well as the "lack of seriousness".
Wisdom.
Thailand Sabai Union
It keeps the first words of the two merged parties.
Thanks for the correction Wisdom. Being as you're the only true Thai citizen (IRL and all) perhaps you have some ideas yourself or phrases/words that invoke unity/strength/etc to form a new party name?