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End The Unconscious Democracy
eNorway (and every other nation in eRepublic) is an unconscious Democracy. Which is to say that the poor plebs who do not seek to become presidents or congressmen/women or members of parties are merely empty votes.
Should an non-politically alligned citizen take the time to vote during elections, that singular act is all that matters. For all intents and purposes from that point on until the next month's elections, politically, he can go to sleep... Might as well go to sleep.
Because from the time he casts his vote one month till the next month, laws are proposed pass or are defeated. Trade embargoes are initiated (or not) and wars are declared, won and or lost. Aside from fighting in the wars his involvement in the political aspects of this game are nil. His Government is on autopilot as far as he is concerned.
Sure, he could join a party but should he have to?
Why can't a citizen, any citizen see who voted and how on a particular issue? I personally would like to know who voted to increase the minimum wage and who voted against it. That is the meat of the political process, not casting a single vote every month and then forgetting about it.
Yes, a member of a party ought to be able to find out from their Congressmen, but if you aren't a member of a party you are #$^% out of luck.
Doesn't the average citizen have a right to know who voted (or didn't) in order that he can make a more informed decision come the next election? Shouldn't he be able to judge from objective facts who is or is not more in line with his own political ideals?
What sort of incentive is there for him to vote without such knowledge? He can not possibly know if the person who won his vote with a presentation or a newspaper article is living up to the principles he/she claimed before the election.
How does he even know if the congressman he voted for is even showing up to vote?
So how can this problem be solved... Well the best way would be for the creators to make it possible to see who voted and for what, but that might take some time to implement. For now I would suggest that the government of eNorway be proactive on this issue and delegate a person to post, to a newspaper like this who voted and how, in order that citizens can remain informed and see who is really doing what.
Come on eNorway, end the unconscious democracy!
Should an non-politically alligned citizen take the time to vote during elections, that singular act is all that matters. For all intents and purposes from that point on until the next month's elections, politically, he can go to sleep... Might as well go to sleep.
Because from the time he casts his vote one month till the next month, laws are proposed pass or are defeated. Trade embargoes are initiated (or not) and wars are declared, won and or lost. Aside from fighting in the wars his involvement in the political aspects of this game are nil. His Government is on autopilot as far as he is concerned.
Sure, he could join a party but should he have to?
Why can't a citizen, any citizen see who voted and how on a particular issue? I personally would like to know who voted to increase the minimum wage and who voted against it. That is the meat of the political process, not casting a single vote every month and then forgetting about it.
Yes, a member of a party ought to be able to find out from their Congressmen, but if you aren't a member of a party you are #$^% out of luck.
Doesn't the average citizen have a right to know who voted (or didn't) in order that he can make a more informed decision come the next election? Shouldn't he be able to judge from objective facts who is or is not more in line with his own political ideals?
What sort of incentive is there for him to vote without such knowledge? He can not possibly know if the person who won his vote with a presentation or a newspaper article is living up to the principles he/she claimed before the election.
How does he even know if the congressman he voted for is even showing up to vote?
So how can this problem be solved... Well the best way would be for the creators to make it possible to see who voted and for what, but that might take some time to implement. For now I would suggest that the government of eNorway be proactive on this issue and delegate a person to post, to a newspaper like this who voted and how, in order that citizens can remain informed and see who is really doing what.
Come on eNorway, end the unconscious democracy!
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If you really want to see what we, as a congress, are doing, you have to pop in to <a href="http://<a href="http://www.erepublik.no" target="_blank">www.erepublik.no</a>" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.erepublik.no" target="_blank">www.erepublik.no</a></a>
This is the "official" forum for eNorway and here all the decisions are made. With the pro's and con's debated. All this info is open to the general public.
On the topic of of the last vote for minimum wage, most/all congressmen have agreed that before any vote is set up in game, a discussion has to be made in the Congress forum and given at least 24 hours before a matter can be decided. This is to give time for a discussion between elected officials to actually take a side in the matter.
Hope to see you on <a href="http://www.erepublik.no" target="_blank">www.erepublik.no</a>
I want to add to Brekkjern's comment that the proposal to increase minimum wage was generally rejected because it was not first discussed on <a href="http://www.erepublik.no" target="_blank">www.erepublik.no</a> (I voted "no" for this reason). While non-congress citizens can only read the "kongress" forum, they are free to leave any comments in the "politikk" forum. I personally would love to see more citizen involvement in the forum, and I'm sure many other congressmembers would, too.
Eris,
"I personally would love to see more citizen involvement in the forum, and I'm sure many other congressmembers would, too."
For starters, then, how about allowing citizens to comment on the actions and arguments of congressmen? What is the benefit of conducting government in a read-only forum?
They are allowed - just not in the same place.
The benefit with a read-only forum, is to avoid spam, and to have a neat and tidy overview over things.
Congress discussion is for congress only, and people who have something to say, are encouraged to do so here;
<a href="http://erepublik.no/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=767ef245279d65708a3cb49b7993eb12" target="_blank">http://erepublik.no/viewforum.php?f=8&am[..]eb12</a>
But to let everyone post whatever in the congress forum, would eventually be a mess. That's why they can read it, to keep an eye on what we are doing, and they are free to come up with suggestions in the political forum.
I only recall 1 piece of spam on the forum over the past 3 months, so I don't agree that spam-control is a legitimate reason to exclude citizen participation on political issues. I understand the belief that there would be too much distracting noise. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't have some neat and tidy record if that's useful to you, I'm suggesting that if you want citizen-involvement, you should look at the cause of citizen non-involvement. Yes, we can talk amongst ourselves while the gutteklubben makes the decisions, but what would be the point of that?
The next time the government wants to take some action, I'd like to see that action described and discussed in an open forum before it goes into hands-off land.
Just to add to what Johan said, in the RW it is what the common people want that drives the political necessity of Congress. Here is seems to be the other way around.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of <a href="http://www.erepublik.no," target="_blank">www.erepublik.no,</a> I had no idea it even existed...
That too is a problem.
Congress area in forum is for congressional discussion and I don`t see the reason why everyone should be able to post there. This will give only a mess. If you want to tell us something just post in 'politikk' place.
Every new registered Norwegian player gets information about <a href="http://www.erepublik.no/" target="_blank">http://www.erepublik.no/</a> so he can join it. There is also 20 NOK for every new registered Norwegian player so I encourage everyone to do this. This is a real help at the beginning of the game!
And last thing. You judge world only by your perspective. You aren`t involved in Norwegian life so you claim that politics don`t ask ppl what they want. But just see - we had elections only couple days ago and ppl voted for this politicians not you. So maybe world isn`t so bad here in Norway and we really care about ppl.
Guys, join us on <a href="http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=enorge" target="_blank">http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=en[..]norge</a> and see how we live in Norway. Just don`t fore everyone to live in your imagined reality.
Sebulba says, "Congress discussion is for congress only, and people who have something to say, are encouraged to do so [in another forum]."
Johan Galt says, "...I don't agree that spam-control is a legitimate reason to exclude citizen participation on political issues."
Zipperhead says, "...in the RW it is what the common people want that drives the political necessity of Congress. Here is seems to be the other way around."
How can the government be any more transparent than allowing ALL Congress posts to be viewed by the public? Who is being excluded? Congress needs a place to have discussions without interference, just like in the RW. The media still televises and publishes everything for public participation.
It might be in your best interests, gentlemen, to make mirror threads of read-only Congress threads you want to discuss with the public. It is only one additional step that accomplishes the exact same goal.
What are your motives if being able to read everything and comment on everything with everyone is not enough?
Let's say you invite me to your house to stay for a week, and you tell me I can dine with you in the kitchen and converse with you in the living room, but I must sleep in the guest bedroom.
Are you imposing on my rights to sleep in your own bed next to your wife? By your logic, yes. Because I have free reign to go everywhere, or I will cry out that my rights are being infringed upon.
If you so strongly disagree with Congress' decision to let you "sleep in the guest room," then you are more than welcome to create your own Congress with your own house rules somewhere else where you don't mind me taking a poke at your wife while you sleep on the floor.
I will repeat my suggestion. The next time one of you decides "This is what the government should do", first post that proposal and discuss it in an open forum. Of course if you're not interested in citizen involvement, then you should *not* do this. You can also ignore any objections posted by citizens in the politikk section. This is not a complicated concept.
Here you are, gentlemen.
Congress-only thread about this issue:
<a href="http://erepublik.no/viewtopic.php?p=22938" target="_blank">http://erepublik.no/viewtopic.php?p=2293[..]2938</a>
Identical mirror thread of the above post for unrestricted public participation:
<a href="http://erepublik.no/viewtopic.php?p=22939" target="_blank">http://erepublik.no/viewtopic.php?p=2293[..]2939</a>
My work here is done. Thanks for making me look awesome.
Johan Galt says, "You can also ignore any objections posted by citizens in the politikk section."
Do you live in a world where everyone is forced to respond to anything you say? As far as I know, I can ignore you absolutely anywhere, but I instead choose to listen to your trolling and humiliate you. That is the freedom of choice granted to all individuals. Would you rather force free individuals to obey your commands?
Wow.
I would personally like to thank Andreas Stassivik and areqw for completely blowing this out of proportion. It makes me even more curious about who is voting for what.
As I said in my response on this I did not know about <a href="http://www.erepublik.no," target="_blank">www.erepublik.no,</a> and now that I do I appreciate that citizens can find out (even if only peripherally) what is going on.
However, it still doesn't address who votes how on what issues and it doesn't address at all the fact that the people (common citizens) are not driving the political process the politicians are and that is 180 degrees out of phase with how it should be.
Talk is cheap, I'd rather have proof of how my chosen candidate is spending his time behind closed doors, and a government that decides on its own what it is to do is the antithesis of a proper government no matter how many elections you hold.
@Johan Galt People in Norway choose Congress because in democracy like we have in this game (and probably in RL) it is not everyone in country who participate in decisions making. And it`s not only to avoid mess but also to keep country security. There are some issues that even shouldn`t be discussed in public.
If you want to be involved in country politics just use forum and irc. Act and do something first and then complain. Not in another sequence.
Everyone can read 'Kongressen' part and if you see there something that is important, you just can start discussion in 'Politikk' forum. This is fair and good rule and I don`t see any need to change it.
This game has some rules and you should know them. Norwegian society has also some rules and it won`t be changed just because you want this. Or maybe real freedom is when everyone do what you want?
Ppl vote in elections and choose what they want to have in country. This is the best way to make changes - not by accusing other of some irrational issues. I really care about ppl needs and I will do everything to keep my elections promises. But I don`t feel guilty just because they are different than yours.
And this is end of discussion about this. You don`t listen my arguments so it is pointless. Also I don`t want to sleep with your wife - don`t worry i`m not that kind.
If you want to know what people are voting, you'd have to ask the admins to change the feature. We don't control in-game mechanics, and we do our best to keep everyone in the loop on what we're doing in congress. But just like IRL we cant have the entire population take part in congress discussions, then there wouldn't really be any reason to have a congress.
Thanks Cirno. I realized that the Admin's would have to be the ones to implement that for the entire game, and said as much in my article.
I disagree that everyone needs to debate the issues, but I do think that the issues that matter should start with the people and not necessarily with the government.
I would think that it would be quite an easy thing to do to publish the results of votes though. That would be a newspaper I'd subscribe to.
Come to think of it that exact information is available for most nations on the web or through a government run website. Is that not done in Norway?
You can always refer to erepublik.no for the latest discussions and votes, but BP also publishes an article once a week with a summery of the last week. Atm areqw is doing this, you can follow his newspaper here: <a href="http://www.erepublik.com/en/newspaper/polsk-ambassaden-196823/1" target="_blank">http://www.erepublik.com/en/newspaper/po[..]823/1</a>
Wow.. I do believe Stassi just owned both of you, with his last post. Go Stassi - comb that fur!
Oh.. Another thing, regarding congress. All in-game proposals are to be discussed in the forum before putting it up. This is to be open about things, and also to get different views. Solo riders who don't care about these things are not well appreaciated, and will be voted down by default by the rest of the congress.
This is when non-congress citizens can give their opinion, by reading it in "congress", and writing it in "politics"... See? They CAN be active if they want. I believe Stassi put it quite well, by the mention of a "straw man". There have been a lot of those from Kapitalist Partiet latelly.